Anyone have problems lowering a second with ATC Guide or Reverso in Guide Mode?

yes, it's true....my climbing 'career' is over due to this thread.
Funny thing is that with more than 100,000' of belaying through my ATC Guide in 'auto-block' mode, I can't use my elbows anymore either. Looks like tongue jams for now on...tough on rock but perfect for MP forums!
And even funnier, I've never had to use the 'release' method in real life...guess I need partners that fall more and 'can't get up' to see how truly special this technique is?

Mark Nelson wrote:Here's a rigging progression that works well with a BD Guide. It keeps the belayer out of the pulley problem. If you know a safe spot will be attained and system can be unweighted, this works really well. Moving from top left to bottom right, the pics show typical autoblock to a lower system, back to typical autoblock. Reasoning for throwing this out here is discussion of what works efficiently to perform a safe lower in a top-site type situation like ouray; the ability to control a load is wonderfully better than working a pulley. And, mostly, I'd rather not see another climber get dropped because of an unexpected loss of load control. However, this setup introduces a problem for mid-wall weight transfer if you need to do one. You'll probably need to introduce a hitch and load that so you can switch out back to the autoblock. And, this rig is an open system, be aware of that.

Question...with the master point being loaded how would you tie a 8 in the cordellette? Or is this just a representation of using the shelf?

In my opinion, the guide plates are a "solution" to a problem that never existed. While "solving" this non-existent problem of how in the world to belay the second, they encourage inattention, introduce multiple inconveniences, harbor dangerous idiosyncracies, and provoke absolutely hilarious work-arounds, as evidenced by the video illustrating everything the modern belayer has to do to lower a second.

Personally, I've been belayed with guide plates by experienced users, including experienced guides. I dislike the experience---it is almost impossible to step down quickly without locking up the plate and ending up on tension. If the rope runs off to the side or over an overhang, this can cause nasty fall and leave the second, who was just trying to adjust their position, hanging in space. In any case it ruins the sense of climbing the pitch.

The plates do have their specialized uses, and may be fine for generally less than vertical terrain. Once it gets steep and overhangs and/or roofs are involved, either as climbing problems or just features of the terrain the ropes have to run over, sensitive paying out of slack and outright lowering becomes a routine part of the belaying process, and in those cases, I think that the guides plates are a problem, not a solution.

Scott McMahon wrote: Question...with the master point being loaded how would you tie a 8 in the cordellette? Or is this just a representation of using the shelf?

It's pre-rigged before being loaded for a lowering. You probably want that redirect higher than your top-shelf.

Mark Nelson wrote: It's pre-rigged before being loaded for a lowering. You probably want that redirect higher than your top-shelf.

Would a prussic off 2 of the legs suffice?

I have to lower people from top belay regularly at my home crag. I have found that I like to use the method shown in the video and which I believe to be safe when done correctly. Some things I like to do differently...

1. I like to generally set a redirect anchor which is higher than the shelf (I find the shelf is just too low to be helpful for many applications). This helps for both lowering and when needed raising a climber who is too tired or unable to climb.

2. Instead of using a sling to weight the device for lowering, i like to use extra cordage from my anchor which I clove hitch to my belay loop, this allows for much more flexibility particularly when you are at a hanging belay. When I have used slings I get the feeling I am on a tight leash and do not have proper control.

3. A couple shoulder length runners are always good to have if you want to back up your system with a friction hitch or need to raise a climber with a pulley system.

rgold wrote:In my opinion, the guide plates are a "solution" to a problem that never existed.

I used to think that too until my friend had one while three of us were climbing multipitch... The ability to bring two people up at the same time is invaluable in conserving time and energy.

And there's a lot of bs on this site floating around about how it is so bad to take your hand off the brake end! Sure, if you set up an anchor on a purely traversing pitch, probably not the best idea to use it in guide mode. But on terrain that doesn't wander too much the phsyics behind the lock-off prevent the follower from falling!

Do you have to hold your cam in the crack with your hand when you fall on it?

ditto what rgold said. as for belaying 2 seconds at once, its not that bad using the traditional setup. maybe takes a bit more attention, which the ipod generation generally struggles with...

rgold wrote:In my opinion, the guide plates are a "solution" to a problem that never existed. While "solving" this non-existent problem of how in the world to belay the second, they encourage inattention, introduce multiple inconveniences, harbor dangerous idiosyncracies, and provoke absolutely hilarious work-arounds, as evidenced by the video illustrating everything the modern belayer has to do to lower a second. ... I dislike the experience---it is almost impossible to step down quickly without locking up the plate and ending up on tension. ... I think that the guides plates are a problem, not a solution.

Ditto what rgold said. In most of my climbing experiences, autoblock rigs are redundantly stupid. Münter Hitch all the way if you insist.

there are many ways to skin el gato; some ways are cool as cat nip, others just leave pee on the carpet

slim wrote:ditto what rgold said. as for belaying 2 seconds at once, its not that bad using the traditional setup. maybe takes a bit more attention, which the ipod generation generally struggles with...

I resemble that remark...

I'm out climbing rocks! I don't want to be fooling with ropes while I'm enjoying the view!

Gosh

I think all that redirect stuff is too complex.

Just stick your nut tool in the small hole on the BD guide and use it as a lever. Keep your other hand on the brake side of the rope.

However, if I'm anticipating having to lower somebody, especially like having to lower them all the way back down a pitch, I wouldn't use the autoblock mode.

Hey Buff,

What do you mean when you say:

"However, this setup introduces a problem for mid-wall weight transfer if you need to do one. You'll probably need to introduce a hitch and load that so you can switch out back to the autoblock. And, this rig is an open system, be aware of that."

What would be mid-wall weight transfer, and when you say autoblock, are you referring to the hitch people use when rapping? Also, what do you mean when saying "open system?" Thanks! Just trying to completely understand this.

Jared,

If i understand this thread correctly.

Autoblock - refers to the manner in which and ATC Guide is used in Guide mode, it is, although arguably here, a setup which "autoblocks" (or auto-locks if that helps you comprehend) the brake side so that the belayer can have free use of his hands.

Mid-wall weight transfer - refers to the operation of freeing the belay device, from the loaded weight of a climber. This would be to re-rig the device as shown in Buff's photos for another use. (as you can understand, with the atc being loaded in his first photo, it would be nearly impossible, furthermore dangerous to lift the belay carabiner the ~3 inches to clip into the masterpoint) This would need to be achieved by using a friction hitch to free the load from the ATC momentarily

This thread has made me realize that I have never lowered from above. I've had to pay slack before, but in all instances the climber had a great stance or it was low-angle.

I know I'm asking for argument here. But in reviving this thread four years is there any consensus on best practice?

And lastly some questions.
1. Is opposition to the method of redirect being described by Eli in the vid, merely based in the "that's a hassle" argument?
2.(Disclaimer I watched the vid at work with sound off) Is the friction hitch being used in eli's redirect vid necessary, or is a high redirect and attentive brake hand sufficient?
3. Is the ATC in Guide mode not sufficient for lowering due to lack of resistance of rope on rope contact (it doesn't pinch effectively under motion)???
4. Is Buff's method of attaching belay carabiner to master-point offering us an additional advantage over the merely redirected ATC guide & lower?
5. Is the criticism of "guide plates" arguing that all "guide" belaying should be done from the harness and redirected? Was that standard practice prior to devices such as ATC Guide?

Great. I knew that some referred to it as "guide mode." I guess I haven't heard it referred to as autoblock mode. Thanks for the response. Makes sense.

A two year old thread! Interesting to read my anti-guide plate rant two years later. It is pretty clear the tide is not flowing in my direction on this one, but little that I said back then has changed as far as I'm concerned. (Little but not nothing: new techniques, such as parking the second hanging from a guide plate, have emerged. See the superb e-book by Coley and Kirkpatrick.)

One of the biggest myths is that you need a plate and direct anchor belay to bring up two seconds simultaneously. I've tried it over and over both ways now, and there is no question in my mind that you get better, quicker, more attentive belaying from the classical belay, especially if the two seconds are moving fast. I've seen several examples of belayers who can't keep up with two seconds climbing simultaneously belayed through a plate, with resulting slack in the belay that would cause far higher loads to everything and everybody if one of the seconds falls. One of the reasons for this is that friction in the guide plates makes it hard to take in both strands simultaneously, and the belayer continually alternating strands can continually leaves slack in both of them.

Another myth is that the classical belay stresses the belayer with the loads of one or two climbers. True if you rig it as an old-fashioned harness belay. The "right" way to rig it is with a slack-free tie-in to the anchor and the belay device clipped to the rope tie-in loop, not the harness belay loop. This means any loads are transmitted directly to the anchor by the tensioned tie-in strand.

Ok folks, now back to your regularly-scheduled guide plate belaying. I'm just sayin'...

Use a gigi or alpine smart and youll never have issues pulling up even 2 old thick n fuzzay 10.5mm ropes again

Theres a reason why most guides these days belay up 2 seconds (and they do this more than any other groups of climbahs) use autoblock plates

;)

You should not redirect the brake strand when lowering from plaquette mode because the brake strand is likely to jam unless redirected exactly in-line with the teeth of the device. Because this is a known issue Black Diamond recommends no redirect-- instead, a belay back up (munter, alt. belay device) should be used.

rgold wrote: I've seen several examples of belayers who can't keep up with two seconds climbing simultaneously belayed through a plate, with resulting slack in the belay that would cause far higher loads to everything and everybody if one of the seconds falls. One of the reasons for this is that friction in the guide plates makes it hard to take in both strands simultaneously, and the belayer continually alternating strands can continually leaves slack in both of them.

This is a very good point for those in the USA in particular. If you have difficulties pulling the rope through the guide plate, get some thinner ropes. This is less of an issue in Euro land as thin halves and twins are the norm. (It might also be because I think ropes seem cheaper in Europe than the USA, but I might be wrong on this, and hence we don't have fat and furry ropes, but new thin shiny ones.)

Don't struggle with your guide plate: get thin ropes.

Another way to speed up taking in with a plate is to keep the anchors high so you can take in 3ft at a time (not always possible)