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Safe Lowering with ATC

Original Post
Syd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

Yesterday, I watched a beginner being taught by a staff member in a gym, how to lower with an ATC. She was told to keep the left hand still and feed rope to it with a moving right hand. (Rope moving right to left.) There have been countless lowering accidents where the belayer has lost control. To me this approach seems dangerous. It encourages rope slippage in the left hand. Too much slippage ... and a messy end.

IMHO a far safer way to lower is to have both hands moving, and to alternately pass the rope from left to right. That is, right hand gripping while it moves left, with left hand sliding to the right to meet the right in the centre; then left hand gripping as it moves left while right hand slides to the right. Repeat. This ensures one hand always has a grip on the rope, while lowering smoothly.

Any comments?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

I don't really understand the "hand moving" part of this. I lower, with both hands, by a combination of relaxing the grip on the rope through my hands (to allow the rope to slide through) and changing the angle at which the rope comes out of the brake side of the ATC.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

As long as both hands are below the brake and in the rope its fine

There are many ways to cook a dog ... As long as it ends up being tasty

However this being MP, only my way (with black bean sauce) ends up being fingah licking good !!!

I predict many pages of senseless arguments

;)

Mtn. Dumass · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

You should of done the responsible thing. Run towards them while yelling YA YAH YAH YOUR YOU'ARE GONNA DIE!!!! Then give them the number to rock and resole.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
FrankPS wrote:I don't really understand the "hand moving" part of this. I lower, with both hands, by a combination of relaxing the grip on the rope through my hands (to allow the rope to slide through) and changing the angle at which the rope comes out of the brake side of the ATC.
I suspect many/most experienced climbers do that. But telling a BEGINNER to slowly relax their hold on the rope until it starts to move is simply asking for a dropped climbed. I've seen it happen; newbies just don't have the judgment to control the rope as grip is lessened. Best IMO is both hands under the ATC and FEED the rope into the device.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Lowering with an ATC-like device is perhaps the skill that both experienced climbers and novices suck at most.

I really hate is being lowered a foot at a time, with a jerk every foot. I don't care if you use one or both hands on the brake side: it's wrong. Not only is it uncomfortable, but as the OP mentions, it's not the safest method.

This method works with either hand on the brake-side, but I'll describe it right handed. I'm only gonna say this once and I really don't care what you think of it until you've tried/practiced it.

Start: Climber is taken. Rope is locked off at your right hip.

With your left hand, hold your locking biner with your thumb up. Now, with your thumb, push the ATC away from the biner (1/4 to 1/2 inch). Gradually, move your brake hand away from your hip, decreasing the angle of the rope through the ATC. What you'll find is that the rope starts to predictably slide on its own. You don't have to feed it.

Relaxing your thumb stops the climber. Pulling the rope to your hip again also stops the climber.

With a little practice, you'll be able to lower your partner without moving either hand, just by balancing your left and right hands. (Kinda like the clutch and accelerator in a manual transmission. Oh, you guys don't know how to drive one of those, do you?) You can lower fast or slow, and SMOOTHLY without burning your hand and barely having to grip the brake side. All the friction is provided by the ATC.

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
Gunkiemike wrote: I suspect many/most experienced climbers do that. But telling a BEGINNER to slowly relax their hold on the rope until it starts to move is simply asking for a dropped climbed. I've seen it happen; newbies just don't have the judgment to control the rope as grip is lessened. Best IMO is both hands under the ATC and FEED the rope into the device.
Really? I've found that if I told them to feed the rope, they'd go both-strands-parallel almost immediately. Telling them that angle controls speed, they tend to hang out in the brake position much more readily.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

Thanks John.....

don't need 25 pages...

doug rouse · · Denver, CO. · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 660

Uh..if they hit the ground hard, youre doing it wrong

Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818

Thanks, John, that was a very thorough explaination. Also, adding a second carabiner between the belay loop and the ATC creates a wider radius, and a bit more friction, which is helpful for beginning belayers, and smoothes out the "jerky" lowering.

rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

Best bag for the buck, GLOVES. I have seen far too many people pretty much let go if the rope gets hot in their hands.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
rging wrote:Best bag for the buck, GLOVES. I have seen far too many people pretty much let go if the rope gets hot in their hands.
If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
John Byrnes wrote: If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period.
in most cases i would agree with you but when you are breaking in a rope/using skinny ropes (under 9mm imo) it is much harder to control the speed and therefore an experienced belayer, if not very careful, can lower too fast and create too much friction. that being said, if you just drop the rope because it gets hot you are too much of a sally to be climbing in the first place. if the rope gets hot just grip it and it will burn for a split second but stopping it will cause it to cool off.
My suggestion is to teach them to put both hands on the breaking end and slowly loosen their grip. if you are worried about them dropping the climber, add an extra biner or 2 to your locking biner or wrap the rope around your thigh to create more friction. teaching them the right way from the get-go is the way to go. just as you would teach a new climber to use a tube style device first before graduating to a braking assist device so they get good belay technique first
Syd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
rging wrote: I have seen far too many people pretty much let go if the rope gets hot in their hands.
If the rope gets hot, it means the belayer is lowering incorrectly. Frictional heating is a sign the rope is slipping through a hand instead of being fed while the rope is being gripped. If two hands are used as I described, lowering can be quite smooth with no slipping.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
Syd wrote: If the rope gets hot, it means the belayer is lowering incorrectly. Frictional heating is a sign the rope is slipping through a hand instead of being fed while the rope is being gripped. If two hands are used as I described, lowering can be quite smooth with no slipping.
A hot hand is a sign that the belayer isn't using the friction of the belay device and is trying to control speed with a tight grip. Lowering the hand back to the hip is the proper position to stop a climber. Then with a normal grip raise the hand up to feed rope and back down to stop. this works best with a palm down technique.
If TRing off of thin ropes, then just add another biner to the belay device.

John Byrnes wrote:
If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period.
^^^^^
This
amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
  • Start: Climber is taken.
  • Rope is locked off at your right hip.
  • With your left hand, hold your locking biner with your thumb up.
  • Now, with your thumb, push the ATC away from the biner (1/4 to 1/2 inch).
  • Gradually, move your brake hand away from your hip, decreasing the angle of the rope through the ATC. What you'll find is that the rope starts to predictably slide on its own.
  • Relaxing your thumb stops the climber.
  • Pulling the rope to your hip again also stops the climber.

With a little practice, you'll be able to lower your partner without moving either hand, just by balancing your left and right hands. (Kinda like the clutch and accelerator in a manual transmission.

I am having difficult time visualizing parts of your technique, especially how to push the ATC with the thumb away from the carabiner. I find that when ATC is loaded and the rope is under tension provided by the full weight of the climber ( well, rather like ~60% of her or his weight), the ATC gets pulled toward the carabiner. The carabiner creates a pivot point, how do you push ATC away from it?
Perhaps you could shoot a quick video and upload it to YouTube, or take series of photos?
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

belay police

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
amarius wrote: I am having difficult time visualizing parts of your technique, especially how to push the ATC with the thumb away from the carabiner. I find that when ATC is loaded and the rope is under tension provided by the full weight of the climber ( well, rather like ~60% of her or his weight), the ATC gets pulled toward the carabiner. The carabiner creates a pivot point, how do you push ATC away from it? Perhaps you could shoot a quick video and upload it to YouTube, or take series of photos?
No. Stop visualizing and try it.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
eli poss wrote: in most cases i would agree with you but when you are breaking in a rope/using skinny ropes (under 9mm imo) it is much harder to control the speed and therefore an experienced belayer, if not very careful, can lower too fast and create too much friction.
Nonsense! If you have a less-than-9mm rope, you need a different belay device! And "breaking in a rope"? What kind of nonsense is that?

eli poss wrote: My suggestion is to teach them to put both hands on the breaking end and slowly loosen their grip. if you are worried about them dropping the climber, add an extra biner or 2 to your locking biner or wrap the rope around your thigh to create more friction. teaching them the right way from the get-go is the way to go.
You teach them to put both hands on the brake side (WRONG) and then have the nerve to say "teach them the right way from the get go"? Wrapping the rope around their thigh? Sorry, but that's total bullshit.

eli poss wrote:just as you would teach a new climber to use a tube style device first before graduating to a braking assist device so they get good belay technique first
This is not always true either. Eli, you should just drop out of this discussion before you embarrass yourself further.
Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 125

The original ATC was not a good choice for super skinny ropes IMO. The ATC-XP though works fine even with sub 9mm ropes and doesn't require an extra carabiner.

rocknice2 wrote: If TRing off of thin ropes, then just add another biner to the belay device. John Byrnes wrote: If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period. ^^^^^ This
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

The petzl recipes for doggay stew taste da best !!!

Except on MP where everyone thinks their dawg meat recipe is da bomb !!!

vimeo.com/80477504

;)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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