Safe Lowering with ATC
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Yesterday, I watched a beginner being taught by a staff member in a gym, how to lower with an ATC. She was told to keep the left hand still and feed rope to it with a moving right hand. (Rope moving right to left.) There have been countless lowering accidents where the belayer has lost control. To me this approach seems dangerous. It encourages rope slippage in the left hand. Too much slippage ... and a messy end. |
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I don't really understand the "hand moving" part of this. I lower, with both hands, by a combination of relaxing the grip on the rope through my hands (to allow the rope to slide through) and changing the angle at which the rope comes out of the brake side of the ATC. |
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As long as both hands are below the brake and in the rope its fine |
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You should of done the responsible thing. Run towards them while yelling YA YAH YAH YOUR YOU'ARE GONNA DIE!!!! Then give them the number to rock and resole. |
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FrankPS wrote:I don't really understand the "hand moving" part of this. I lower, with both hands, by a combination of relaxing the grip on the rope through my hands (to allow the rope to slide through) and changing the angle at which the rope comes out of the brake side of the ATC.I suspect many/most experienced climbers do that. But telling a BEGINNER to slowly relax their hold on the rope until it starts to move is simply asking for a dropped climbed. I've seen it happen; newbies just don't have the judgment to control the rope as grip is lessened. Best IMO is both hands under the ATC and FEED the rope into the device. |
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Lowering with an ATC-like device is perhaps the skill that both experienced climbers and novices suck at most. |
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Gunkiemike wrote: I suspect many/most experienced climbers do that. But telling a BEGINNER to slowly relax their hold on the rope until it starts to move is simply asking for a dropped climbed. I've seen it happen; newbies just don't have the judgment to control the rope as grip is lessened. Best IMO is both hands under the ATC and FEED the rope into the device.Really? I've found that if I told them to feed the rope, they'd go both-strands-parallel almost immediately. Telling them that angle controls speed, they tend to hang out in the brake position much more readily. |
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Thanks John..... |
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Uh..if they hit the ground hard, youre doing it wrong |
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Thanks, John, that was a very thorough explaination. Also, adding a second carabiner between the belay loop and the ATC creates a wider radius, and a bit more friction, which is helpful for beginning belayers, and smoothes out the "jerky" lowering. |
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Best bag for the buck, GLOVES. I have seen far too many people pretty much let go if the rope gets hot in their hands. |
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rging wrote:Best bag for the buck, GLOVES. I have seen far too many people pretty much let go if the rope gets hot in their hands.If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period. |
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John Byrnes wrote: If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period.in most cases i would agree with you but when you are breaking in a rope/using skinny ropes (under 9mm imo) it is much harder to control the speed and therefore an experienced belayer, if not very careful, can lower too fast and create too much friction. that being said, if you just drop the rope because it gets hot you are too much of a sally to be climbing in the first place. if the rope gets hot just grip it and it will burn for a split second but stopping it will cause it to cool off. My suggestion is to teach them to put both hands on the breaking end and slowly loosen their grip. if you are worried about them dropping the climber, add an extra biner or 2 to your locking biner or wrap the rope around your thigh to create more friction. teaching them the right way from the get-go is the way to go. just as you would teach a new climber to use a tube style device first before graduating to a braking assist device so they get good belay technique first |
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rging wrote: I have seen far too many people pretty much let go if the rope gets hot in their hands.If the rope gets hot, it means the belayer is lowering incorrectly. Frictional heating is a sign the rope is slipping through a hand instead of being fed while the rope is being gripped. If two hands are used as I described, lowering can be quite smooth with no slipping. |
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Syd wrote: If the rope gets hot, it means the belayer is lowering incorrectly. Frictional heating is a sign the rope is slipping through a hand instead of being fed while the rope is being gripped. If two hands are used as I described, lowering can be quite smooth with no slipping.A hot hand is a sign that the belayer isn't using the friction of the belay device and is trying to control speed with a tight grip. Lowering the hand back to the hip is the proper position to stop a climber. Then with a normal grip raise the hand up to feed rope and back down to stop. this works best with a palm down technique. If TRing off of thin ropes, then just add another biner to the belay device. John Byrnes wrote: If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period. ^^^^^ This |
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With a little practice, you'll be able to lower your partner without moving either hand, just by balancing your left and right hands. (Kinda like the clutch and accelerator in a manual transmission. I am having difficult time visualizing parts of your technique, especially how to push the ATC with the thumb away from the carabiner. I find that when ATC is loaded and the rope is under tension provided by the full weight of the climber ( well, rather like ~60% of her or his weight), the ATC gets pulled toward the carabiner. The carabiner creates a pivot point, how do you push ATC away from it? Perhaps you could shoot a quick video and upload it to YouTube, or take series of photos? |
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belay police |
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amarius wrote: I am having difficult time visualizing parts of your technique, especially how to push the ATC with the thumb away from the carabiner. I find that when ATC is loaded and the rope is under tension provided by the full weight of the climber ( well, rather like ~60% of her or his weight), the ATC gets pulled toward the carabiner. The carabiner creates a pivot point, how do you push ATC away from it? Perhaps you could shoot a quick video and upload it to YouTube, or take series of photos?No. Stop visualizing and try it. |
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eli poss wrote: in most cases i would agree with you but when you are breaking in a rope/using skinny ropes (under 9mm imo) it is much harder to control the speed and therefore an experienced belayer, if not very careful, can lower too fast and create too much friction.Nonsense! If you have a less-than-9mm rope, you need a different belay device! And "breaking in a rope"? What kind of nonsense is that? eli poss wrote: My suggestion is to teach them to put both hands on the breaking end and slowly loosen their grip. if you are worried about them dropping the climber, add an extra biner or 2 to your locking biner or wrap the rope around your thigh to create more friction. teaching them the right way from the get-go is the way to go.You teach them to put both hands on the brake side (WRONG) and then have the nerve to say "teach them the right way from the get go"? Wrapping the rope around their thigh? Sorry, but that's total bullshit. eli poss wrote:just as you would teach a new climber to use a tube style device first before graduating to a braking assist device so they get good belay technique firstThis is not always true either. Eli, you should just drop out of this discussion before you embarrass yourself further. |
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The original ATC was not a good choice for super skinny ropes IMO. The ATC-XP though works fine even with sub 9mm ropes and doesn't require an extra carabiner. rocknice2 wrote: If TRing off of thin ropes, then just add another biner to the belay device. John Byrnes wrote: If the rope gets hot in your hands with an ATC, you're doing it wrong. Period. ^^^^^ This |
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