Clip in v tie in

Whenever I take a group of newbies out on TR it becomes a hassle to tie everyone in everytime they climb. What I have been doing instead is tying my figure eight and clipping a locker into the loop. This way anyone can walk up, clip in, lock the biner and climb on. I know this is adding another variable in the system, but it's less time consuming and frankly I am too lazy to tie a knot a hundred times. It also prevents the mistake of not finishing the knot, as long as it's tied right the first time. I was wondering if anyone else does this or if this is possibly adding unnessecary risk. Btw, I have done this for years now, and I always inspect my knot after climbs. I haven't had any problems so far.

That is an standard practice at climbing gyms and at camps all over the country. No worries.

Have you thought about teaching the newbies the figure 8 and Follow Through? I teach all the new climbers i climb with the knot and how to check it. If they can tie it three times in a row people seem to remember the knot.

What you are doing works if you are looking to max time climbing.

My only concern would be cross loading the carabiner. Otherwise it's perfectly safe.

Thanks for the replies. Never been to a climbing gym, started outside and it's stayed that way lol. And I thought I would double check on here. I had somebody ask about it on the last outing and I couldn't really give them answers other than the knot was strong and the locker was stronger lol. Guess they were nervous because others around us were tying in.

Jon Zucco wrote:My only concern would be cross loading the carabiner. Otherwise it's perfectly safe.

It's funny you brought that up. That's the one thing I stress to my group. I always show them the proper orientation and tell them to always check and make sure nothing is amiss.

Look - this has been discussed before! How strange.

mountainproject.com/v/tying…

FrankPS wrote:Look - this has been discussed before! How strange. mountainproject.com/v/tying…

Sorry, I didn't search through the forums for it. Either way somebody else could of learned from it.

I have been surprised by the Figure 8: it's a really easy knot to tie. Teach the newbs! :-)

Even the completely uninitiated get it in a few minutes. But I suppose the locker is fine, if you don't wanna. But you better use 14, just to be safe. ;-p

teece303 wrote:But you better use 14, just to be safe. ;-p

Haha it will make them stronger hauling an extra 5 pounds up 😆

I think your right Christopher. And I think the majority agrees to teach them the knot. I'll start doing that.

Clipping in with a single screwgate locker, no matter how "commonplace" it may be, has potential dangers that are not at all theoretical. Deaths and very serious injuries have happened when the rope detaches. Don't for a moment think there are "no worries."

Typically, no one is sure what exactly went wrong when there is an accident. It isn't all that hard for people to forget to screw down a locker or to do things that inadvertently open the screw. Once that happens it is again not all that hard to get the rope to detach.

The UIAA started warning against this practice fourteen years ago. theuiaa.org/upload_area/fil… .

At the very least, a specialized carabiner with autolocking gate set up so it cannot crossload is required, the sort of thing you find on modern belay machines. And someone still has to be around to make sure that the thing has been properly installed, most especially if kids are involved. Failing that, two screwgate lockers with gates opposed.

A properly-tied knot is still the best way.

Two opposed screw gate biners off a figure 8 bight is perfectly fine and safe providing its double checked each time someone clips in

That said ... Teach em the basic skills im how to tie in ... And get them to do it over and over again

Alot of things these days are "convenience climbing" rather than teaching and practicing fundamental skills

;)

I run a small climbing wall and we have many young kids - everyone ties in with a figure eight - even the real young kids learn how to tie it - and then of course the adult belayer checks the knot before they leave the ground. Some industries have a "rule of 300" standard - which basically says "you can do something that "seems" safe about 300 times before it bites you on the butt."

Depends on whether you want to give them a birthday party experience or teach them to be climbers. It's that simple.

Literally the only time that I will allow gym customers to use a carabiner in lieu of physically tying the knot is in a party-belay scenario where I need to cycle a lot of kids through quickly. In those scenarios, I may be dealing with inexperienced volunteers as well as impatient kids, and its enough to get everybody belayed safely, without taking up more of the kids 2 hours trying to teach them a knot they'll forget as soon as the cake comes out. Even then, its two opposed carabiners, and part of the safety check is making sure neither one can open before the climber leaves the ground.

Tangential note: think about how you check your belay carabiner: do you try to open the gate, or try to spin the sleeve? When you teach people, make sure that they're learning to test for the distinct failure mode, not something similar looking but unrelated.

High ropes certification classes teach you to use a bowline on a bight, and two opposite and opposed locking carabiners. The Bowline is much easier to untie after being weighted compared to the fig. 8 which is pretty handy. But, I agree with others, if the people you are going climbing with want the climbing experience, teach them the basic fig. 8 and how to belay with an ATC, and the climbing will feel much more rewarding.

The only thing I would add, would be to run the locking carabiner through the two tie in points on the harness. Just as you would run the sharp end of a rope through the two tie in points. So, not just clipping the carabiner into the belay loop...

Drew Dickey wrote:The only thing I would add, would be to run the locking carabiner through the two tie in points on the harness. Just as you would run the sharp end of a rope through the two tie in points. So, not just clipping the carabiner into the belay loop...

Why? Its not 1985 anymore. The belay loop is the strongest single part of the harness. It has no way to open. If you exceed its breaking strength, in a top-rope situation, where you clipped is the least of your worries. Its actually double wrapped so that it has a safety margin of at least 2. The whole point of 2 carabiners is in case one of them accidentally comes open, not in case one of them breaks.

Or you can just keep shouting "redundancy" without having a clue what it means. That's cool too.

Drew Dickey wrote:The only thing I would add, would be to run the locking carabiner through the two tie in points on the harness. Just as you would run the sharp end of a rope through the two tie in points. So, not just clipping the carabiner into the belay loop...

Here's what one manufacturer says.
TruBlue Autobelay instruction manual page 20 (emphasis mine):

"NEVER CLIMB WITHOUT BEING CORRECTLY ATTACHED
Ensure the carabiner is attached to belay loop of the
harness and the latch is fully closed and the gate engaged
before starting to climb. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death."

FlyHigh wrote: I always inspect my knot after climbs.

I try to do that before the climb, not after.... (I know what you meant, but it just read funny ;)