Half Rope Advice

Jake Kay wrote:looking for a more durable pair of ropes that could also be used by themselves for long distance/lightweight (single rope) ascents such as cathedral traverse stuff etc where we'd only need to do 30m raps

What would be wrong with a thin single rope and a half rope instead of two half ropes? Say, one Joker and one Genesis 8.5? Do they really have to be a matched set?

I've done this and haven't experienced any problem (except weight). If diameters are fairly close, I haven't had any problem rappelling. But, when using a thin single and a half rope together, I never clip both into the same piece of pro.

Also have tied into the middle of a half rope to lead short pitches. I don't know how long the pitches are on Cathedral Traverse.

Sirius wrote:...hard to rappel... Have you folks tried the ol' double locker rap?

This is my preffered method with my 8mm ropes, unless I extend the rappel device, which usually gives me plenty of control and also room for a autoblock. I'll also use it with sub 9.8mm ropes on a single strand in some situations (unknown rappels).

Works well, not sure of any drawbacks other than needing two biners.

BTW, does anyone know if there is any fundamental issue with safety if you also set up a belayer like this? Never really thought about it, but I was thinking this would put me at ease if my wife at the friction of a fat 10.5mm while belaying me on the 8mm. She's held leader falls quite nicely on the 10.5, but I'm never taken a whipper on the 8mm with her belaying.

A 70m Joker and Photon combo is 8lb 13oz/5lb 13oz. If you're carrying the weight a long distance you may as well take two Photons. One of the Joker's strengths is the Unicore but Beal twins have that as well.

If I were doing the Cathedral or Grand Traverse car to car, I'd get the skinniest rope possible. Genesis is too heavy and bulky, IMO. If I only get to use the rope say only 10% of the time spent on the route, I'd like to get the lightest cord I could get away with. Also, I prefer carrying the rope inside of a backpack instead of wearing it in a backpack coil when soloing. But that's just me, I'm old and weak and get freaked out by the loops of the rope getting undone and catching my foot. I'm sure younger and stronger climbers could get away with a 10 mil rope on their long adventures.

Oxygen looks like a fine choice, but on sale it's almost the same price as Phoenix which is a tiny bit lighter. Not sure if it's skinnier though, since Mammut ropes are measured under tension, so I won't be surprised if the 8mil Mammut rope is the same diameter if not fatter than 8.2 mil rope from other manufacturer. You can look at other specs like dynamic elongation, impact force and falls to help you choose a rope.

Before lightness happened, we used to climb in the back-country with an 11mm single and a 9mm "tag" line. God only knows what that rig weighed, although it helped that we were only using 50 m ropes at the time.

My guess is that McCarthy and Tejeda-Flores could have been carrying that system on the first ascent of the Grand Traverse, although they soloed so much of it maybe they most likely just had a single 11mm rope.

Nowadays, something like the Genesis is more a one-rope-for-everything high durability option, with just about half the total material in the sheath. If you need full-length rappels and are serious about going light, then you are in a more specialized context and I think twins, the method of choice for a large number of European alpine climbers (who, lets face it, know a lot more about alpine climbing than most Americans) is probably the best bet.

Most of GT is soloable even today by mere mortals, it's just a couple of rappels and maybe a step or two on the Grand that you need a rope. Some people even choose a single strand of a twin rope for this mission. A twin rope is not as versatile as a half rope, therefore is a more expensive option.

Like I said, there are always stronger and more stoic people out there who could smoke it with heavier bulkier equipment, and Genesis is the most versatile rope. I've used mine as a single rope on many missions. I just thought it's worth mentioning that's it's not the lightest/smallest package out there, plus it's pricey.

doligo wrote:Most of GT is soloable even today by mere mortals, it's just a couple of rappels and maybe a step or two on the Grand that you need a rope. Some people even choose a single strand of a twin rope for this mission.

If you're going to take just one 7.5mm rope then make sure that the "step or two on the Grand" is well within your comfort level. Here's some advice from elsewhere on this site: "Don't underestimate this traverse because of some of the speed records... and don't underestimate the difficulty or overestimate your ability. Unless you peg it exactly (ha!), expect some of the 4th class soloing to become mid 5th with extreme consequence, some of the mid 5th to become difficult 5th, and some of the 5.8 to feel much much harder than the 5.8 you may be used to".

My spies tell me you can manage all the rappels on the GT with one 60 m rope, and that the skinniest 60m single you can find is a good if not extreme option. My guess is McCarthy and Tejeda-Flores would have had a single 11mm 50m rope in 1966. In addition to the extensive "mere mortal" soloing, those guys soloed some of the hard pitches on the North Ridge.

rgold wrote:If you need full-length rappels and are serious about going light, then you are in a more specialized context and I think twins, the method of choice for a large number of European alpine climbers (who, lets face it, know a lot more about alpine climbing than most Americans) is probably the best bet.

No kidding? I'm curious, why in particular are twins more popular than halfs? It has always seemed to me that the weight savings by themselves are not really worth it- for example:

Flycatcher: Twin, 6.9mm, 35g/m

Beal Gully: Half, 7.3mm, 36g/m

That's a savings of 120 grams, or a quarter of a pound.

Martin, the OP lives in Jackson and sounds like spends a lot of time in Tetons, so why not? Rich and all, I'm not disagreeing with you guys' recommendations and opinions, I just merely suggested one little point that the OP may consider when choosing a half rope. If I were living in Jackson, I'd personally go for something light - the approaches are just way long for regular alpine cragging. Don't forget that it's not uncommon in those parts to ride a bike to the trailhead as well.

Patrick Shyvers wrote:why in particular are twins more popular than halfs? It has always seemed to me that the weight savings by themselves are not really worth it

That's fair comment now that there are some very light half ropes on the market (Mammut Twilight at 38 g/m would be another example). But that's a pretty recent development. The Beal Gully is new this year and I don't think the Twilight has been around more than a year or two. A more traditional half rope such as the Mammut Genesis weighs 48 g/m.

Martin le Roux wrote: If you're going to take just one 7.5mm rope then make sure that the "step or two on the Grand" is well within your comfort level. Here's some advice from elsewhere on this site: "Don't underestimate this traverse because of some of the speed records... and don't underestimate the difficulty or overestimate your ability. Unless you peg it exactly (ha!), expect some of the 4th class soloing to become mid 5th with extreme consequence, some of the mid 5th to become difficult 5th, and some of the 5.8 to feel much much harder than the 5.8 you may be used to".

This is very true. It is also worth mentioning that a lot of the technical pitches on the Grand are short. A single 70M twin/half doubled over will get you up most of the technical and down at the rap stations on the OS.

Martin le Roux wrote: That's fair comment now that there are some very light half ropes on the market (Mammut Twilight at 38 g/m would be another example). But that's a pretty recent development. The Beal Gully is new this year and I don't think the Twilight has been around more than a year or two. A more traditional half rope such as the Mammut Genesis weighs 48 g/m.

Yup, I might have to retract based on the latest weights. It may be that the half-twin distinction will disappear eventually anyway. I think that already many halves meet the twin standards, which is to say you can clip them together without getting excessive peak loads.

Thanks for all the advice everybody. The Genesis looks like a good all around consensus, although is pretty pricey for a pair of ropes....I guess thats the price you pay for a solid setup. I will do a little more research and then hopefully make a purchase.

In regard to going super light...Not a huge issue for me. Have already done the grand traverse with what I remember being a beefier (single) 60m half rope. Not that I am crazy in shape, but just don't think that will be the difference maker. More likely to need the durability of a slightly heavier/thicker rope. Thanks again for all the advice.

rgold wrote: Yup, I might have to retract based on the latest weights. It may be that the half-twin distinction will disappear eventually anyway. I think that already many halves meet the twin standards, which is to say you can clip them together without getting excessive peak loads.

Im going to say that most halves ropes can probably be used as twins whether they are "rated" as such or not

Its not like mammut ropes are any more special or have lower impact forces in general than the competitors

Ive posted the numbers before, but in general many halves ropes used as twins will likely have impact forces around that of a hard catching rope such as a maxim

And no one here says those hard catching maxims are "unsafe" to whip on

;)

Question is, 60m or 70m? I have singles of both and would like to pick up a tag line/double for raps. Can't decide if there are many rappels that require full 70m or it's just going to be that much more rope to pull through and extra weight to bring?

I'm thinking Yosemite and the Sierras.

I think you'll be fine with the ability to rappel 60m almost anywhere.

If you get a tag line (i.e. static cord), make sure to size it longer than your dynamic climbing rope, which will stretch on raps and leave you below the end of your tag unless it is appropriately longer.

You can get a Beal Ice Line (half/double) in 70m here for about as cheap as you might find any 70m half rope: amazon.com/BEAL-Ice-Line-Cl…

Linnaeus wrote:If you get a tag line (i.e. static cord), make sure to size it longer than your dynamic climbing rope, which will stretch on raps and leave you below the end of your tag unless it is appropriately longer. You can get a Beal Ice Line (half/double) in 70m here for about as cheap as you might find any 70m half rope: amazon.com/BEAL-Ice-Line-Cl…

This isn't really a problem with 70m singles. Raps are normally 60m or less, so you pull 10m of the main rope through the chains and tie the carabiner block, then join the ends of the ropes together.

I'm actually thinking I should just get a set of half ropes. Reason being that I'm not sure what to do with the tag line while climbing? Is it suppose to be coiled up and be carried by the second? Clipped and hang off the haul loop? Tied in the tie-in point but don't clip it?

I don't like to coil it up and have my second carry it. This implies that we would have a backpack which I don't like to carry on a medium-length route.