Mountain Project Logo

Alpine climbing with groups of 3+ people

Original Post
Trevor H · · Lethbridge, AB · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 186

What' the protocol for groups of three plus when a roped belay is required on an alpine route?

I was thinking of the scenario when a leader climbs up a technical pitch and places protection. If he only has one follower, he belays him up. I've gone rock climbing in groups of three where the second climber cleans the route and trails a second rope up behind for the third and it worked fine but it was slower, obviously.

Is it a no-no to have some of the seconder's prussik up the rope or use an ascender and only belay the last guy? That way if there were say 4 or five people on an alpine route that is mostly a scramble you could share a single rope.

Or instead of that, can you have the followers tie in together ( kind of like short roping) and belay them all up at the same time? (I have seen photos of that on folks doing a mixed snow climb but would be concerned about rock fall in other circumstances)

George Bell · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 5,050

The best setup IMHO is to use double ropes and the leader brings up one person on each rope at the same time. Other options are possible, it makes a big difference how hard the climbing is. If the terrain is very easy and it is unlikely anyone will fall, tieing people in short and bringing everybody up one one rope can work.

Mike Hasse · · New York, NY · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 365

If there are three of you on a technical alpine climb, the leader could lead on twins or half ropes and belay both seconds at the same time, albeit a few feet apart, with an autoblocking belay device in guide mode. This is almost as fast as a team of two, with the additional security of having a three man team in the alpine.

If the climb you're doing requires only a few short technical pitches (like less than three, or if they're spread apart by scrambling/easy snow/whatever) you could have the group climb ropeless most of the time, and then have a leader climb the hard pitch(es) and belay the others up one at a time. This is particularly common in the Alps, where a guide will solo or lead a short hard section and belay the clients up one at a time for a short stretch.

I just wouldn't take a group of more than three on a hard alpine route that requires multiple pitches of technical climbing.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Certainly you will get many answers which may be quite valid. The best answer really depends on the terrain and the climbers' abilities. For very easy terrain relative to the climbers but a rope is desired a party of three on one rope with one on each end and one on a butterfly about 20 feet above the second with suffice. Light and fast. If it is more difficult and sustained then half ropes or two skinny singles, and autoblock as mentioned above. A fourth still could butterfly into one of the ropes. But not ideal. Maybe ok with a true single rope not a half since there would be two followers one this line. Again, terrain and abilities dependent. Instead the third could trail another line or two and belay a fourth and a fifth while the second belays the first. Just keep the leader moving. This assumes there is only one leader in the group. Otherwise consider limiting it to max 3 in each party.

If you tell us what route and climbers abilities you will get a more useful answer. Otherwise we are just guessing scenarios.

Johnny Nubbins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 0

My friend and I had a group of four behind us and follow us up Whitney Gilman last year. The leader led on twins and brought up two seconds at the same time. One of the seconds then belayed the leader on the next pitch while the other brought up the fourth person on a third rope they were trailing. They had it pretty dialed and it seemed like a pretty efficient system, but they also all seemed fairly experienced as well.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

^^^. Didn't someone just say that. Hello?

Trevor H · · Lethbridge, AB · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 186

Thanks for your replies. Consistent and make sense.

If you tell us what route and climbers abilities you will get a more useful answer. Otherwise we are just guessing scenarios.

Was thinking of mountaineering stuff in the Rockies (southern Alberta and Montana) but not one single route in particular.

Gee Monet · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 732

Something else that hasn't been mentioned and could be considered if you want to use only one single rope. Have the leader tie in on the middle of the rope and belay two followers up in parallel mode. Of course your pitches will only be 1/2 as long as your rope. As usual, this all depends on the terrain and such.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Either a single party of 3 or 2 parties of 2

The party of 3 has 2 seconds on autoblock ... If its basically scrambling then person in the middle of rope can work

I do not recommend a single party of 4 ... I got stuck behind such a party on a moderate multi a few weeks ago ... They were a total gongshow with one person leading and everyone else taking forever

Be considerate of the parties behind you, its irresponsible to benight them if you are using slow systems and partners who cant climb moderate grades efficiently

Honestly if its moderate, dont climb with 3 people who cant/wont lead moderate ground

And if its moderate dont bring folks who need to prussik if they cant male the moves

;)

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

^^^^
+1

Go with one party of three with half ropes and both seconds climbing simultaneously or else two ropes of two climbing mostly as independent teams but of course utilizing both ropes for rappelling if necessary. Five people is out, it's going to end up a cluster no matter what tricks you use. If you are going to be a big party on a moderate route with a lot of scrambling, everyone should be capable of leading or else you end up belaying too much and going way too slow.

Dane Burke · · Seattle, Washington · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 85
rgold wrote:everyone should be capable of leading or else you end up belaying too much and going way too slow.
How does everyone being capable of leading result in less belaying? Or are you just saying that more skilled teams tend to move faster?
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Yeah, pretty unclear. When everyone is capable of leading, you end up stopping to rope up less on scrambling-type ground.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Trevor, I'm not sure what you mean by Alpine, but climbing technical rock in 3+ can be reasonably efficient and safe. If you are talking more scrambling or snowy stuff then start to think what happens if the rope gets used, i.e. someone fall off the ridge and there is no pro.

I climb with my wife and 2 kids as follows:

Method 1. Climb as a three as normal (leader uses two ropes, brings up seconds on reverso in guide mode), the 4th climber is attached to one of these ropes via a bight of rope, 3m or so above one of the seconds.

Method 2. Climb as a three as normal (leader uses two ropes, brings up seconds on reverso in guide mode), one of the seconds trails a third rope. This is fixed to the powerpoint when the second arrives at the belay. The 4th climber now climbs the rock self belayed by a mini traxion on this rope. The 4th climber needs to understand how to do this and know about the dangers.

Hope that helps.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Just to add, being able to climb reasonably fast in a 4 or 5 can be very useful when you bump into a slow moving party that need help late in the day. (This seems to happen to me a lot more than it should.)

Kris Holub · · Boulder, Colorado · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 70

As others have mentioned, it's largely dependent on what you're trying to do. If you're climbing at your followers' limit, things will be slow and the most efficient option is to use double/twin ropes and have both followers climb simultaneously on separate ropes. If any of your pitches traverse this can be tricky if you are using double ropes rather than twins.

If the rope is mostly there for backup on relatively easy terrain and the climbers expect to be able to climb the pitches with little hassle, it can work to have the weaker follower tie in with a butterfly a few meters in front of the stronger follower, who ties in normally. You end up using only a single rope but the climber on the end will pull the butterflied climber off if they fall. This is ill-advised on very steep/overhanging, or traversing terrain. It would be a nightmare to self-rescue if the climbers were tied in this way and needed to prusik up.

If you are climbing in a party of 4, it better only be on easy terrain were the rope is nothing more than a precaution on an unexpected fall. Otherwise, best to split up into two parties. Use double/twin ropes. The weakest climber is belayed on their own rope, the second weakest and strongest follower tie in on the same rope with the butterfly method mentioned above.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I think I'd want to test out the behavior of my guide plate in some safe location if I was going to use it to belay three people on two ropes. I know that when the loads get high enough (and/or if the ropes are thin enough) the strands can be forced to change positions in the plate slots and then the plate doesn't brake any more. I have no idea whether this is even remotely an issue if you have two climbers hanging on a single strand in the plate and a third climber climbing (or trying to climb), but I'd rather find out about it on a tree in the back yard than on a climb.

Presumably, the kinds of climbs being discussed are low-angle and have lots of ledges so a true hanging scenario is highly unlikely. On the other hand, I've been on class 3 ground with little cliff bands you skirt, but if anyone falls they go straight over the cliff band and end up hanging.

Another issue of concern is what happens on traverses with this system, remembering that climbs that follow low-angle ridges or ribs are in some sense traverses the whole way and many easy routes switchback back and forth to avoid steeper sections. Something like the "belly crawl" on the Owen-Spaulding route on the Grand Teton comes to mind.



In such cases you are asking your belay system to hold a pendulum fall by two climbers with the loading issues associated with that type of incident.

One of the things about alpine scrambles is that they can change character significantly and become a lot more challenging than anyone was planning on. The Owen-Spaulding is a perfect example. It can be and has been soloed by strong hikers, but with some icing has resulted in fatal falls for highly experienced guides.

There's a genre of accidents in which an experienced person who has done a route with other experienced people takes a bunch of much less experienced people on it and the party runs into trouble, sometimes a lot of trouble, because of the fact that only one competent leader is present. If you are going to act like a guide, make sure you have the qualifications and skills for guiding, and remember that your "clients" may be relatively helpless if anything happens to you.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
rgold wrote: There's a genre of accidents in which an experienced person who has done a route with other experienced people takes a bunch of much less experienced people on it and the party runs into trouble, sometimes a lot of trouble, because of the fact that only one competent leader is present. If you are going to act like a guide, make sure you have the qualifications and skills for guiding, and remember that your "clients" may be relatively helpless if anything happens to you.
This

If you are the ONLY leader bringing up 3 or more folks who dont have the ability to climb with enough confidence to lead on moderate ground (and you will only be doing this on moderate ground)

What in the world will you do if something goes wrong????

Over and over again i see leaders bring up 2+ seconds out here who dont know what they are doing up easy climbs ... The leader barely knows how to use the autoblock, doesnt know how to release it safely, doesnt know what to do if one of the seconds gets into trouble

They cause absolute and utter gongshows and traffic jams on easy moderate routes because some newish leader wants to show off by dragging their new climber friends up a long multi in a group of 3+

Dont go play guide ... If your seconds arent confident enough to lead up moderate ground, take em up something shorter and only take a single second

Ill repeat, if you have 4+ partners do it as 2 parties ... Its faster, its safer, and hopefully u wont cause gongshow

If no one except for the "leader" can climb moderate multi with confidence, dont drag up 4 other folks

Dont play guide

As the most experienced you are responsible for their safety especially if you are the only leader

;)
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
rgold wrote:I think I'd want to test out the behavior of my guide plate in some safe location if I was going to use it to belay three people on two ropes. I know that when the loads get high enough (and/or if the ropes are thin enough) the strands can be forced to change positions in the plate slots and then the plate doesn't brake any more. I have no idea whether this is even remotely an issue if you have two climbers hanging on a single strand in the plate and a third climber climbing (or trying to climb), but I'd rather find out about it on a tree in the back yard than on a climb.
I have checked this and found no issue with 8.5mm ropes. With 7.5mm, no idea.

(My test was taking lead falls onto a Reverso in guide mode.

PS. this is not recommended)
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

I have done three to a rope in the Wind Rivers with good results. I have also done five to a rope when the leader of a second party didn't want to lead in Devil's Head. Not recommended. :-D

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Beginning Climbers
Post a Reply to "Alpine climbing with groups of 3+ people"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.