Deploying Passive Gear

Been trying to get into trad. What is the best way to pull your passive gear of your rack, i.e. gear that is not individually racked? I've been getting better at eyeballing the right piece and will continue to do so. But even so... say your set of nuts... Do you break it into two biners (5/per) then just flip them up until you get to the right size and unclip? Do you unclip your entire set of stoppers and plug the right one while the rest are on the biner in your hand? What is best method/ tricks? I tried flipping my racking wiregate top-down and out but even this isn't ergonomical pulling a single nut off your harness, and if you're wrong on the size it's even worse. Am I missing something?

Also I guess i've been learning in the shadow of ice climbing... Does anybody just individually rack their nuts and simply clip a wiregate pro - rope? Ive been doing Nut - Draw - Rope....

I have a set of about 10 nuts on one oval biner. Some people might split it up between two oval biners. I find the oval biners are more ergonomic than a pear or d-shape biner.

The standard method is to unclip the biner full of nuts from your harness and flip to the size nut you want. Holding that nut, you let the biner and other nuts hang as you place the one nut. You can then grab the remaining nuts and yank on the placement to set it. You then unclip the biner from the nut you have placed.

I have always found it cumbersome to have too many nuts on a single biner. When I had a single set of BD stoppers I had them divided on two regular biners. Small sizes on one, large on another. Now that I have two sets, I have three biners. Small, medium & large.

I eyeball the size and can usually grab the correct set. I pull the entire biner off the harness and set the appropriate nut into the crack. Once it is set, I unclip it from the rest of the nuts.

Take it or leave it, but it works for me.

I put small-med wires on one oval (roughly BD 4-8), and large stoppers (9-11, don't usually carry anything bigger) on another. Micros and brassies go on yet another biner but I don't bring those on most routes.

I usually place wires as described above (unclip the racking biner, place, unclip wire, replace biner on harness) barring special circumstances (e.g. Threading, preclipping to a draw when I know what size I need and the stance is sketch, etc).

The downside to this is if you drop your racking biner on a multipitch route, you just lost everything in that size. Some people like to mix sizes on separate biners for that reason.

Tom, how's it going? Glad to see you're getting out on rock more this summer.

I agree with what everyone else has been saying-take a biner full of stoppers off your harness/gear sling and place the right sized one then unclip the biner from that single nut and place it back on your harness. Figure out what works for you as far as a set on one biner or splitting them up, etc.

I almost always clip at least a quickdraw into the rope and I'll often use a runner or alpine draw since it isn't as stiff and is less likely to wiggle the stopper out. Occasionally on very straight crack that eats stoppers you'll see people rack them individually and clip them directly with only a biner, but it's fairly uncommon.

Will

I put odds on one oval and evens on another oval.

I do this for a couple reasons..

1) If I drop or loose one of the biners for whatever reason I still have small-large nuts instead of just small or just large.

2) If I am in a weird position and may only be able to reach one side of my harness I have a variety of nuts/stoppers and I can more often than not will be able to fit a #8 stopper in a crack where I planned on a #7, and visa versa. At the very least it's something I can get into the rock and clip into so I can move my body to allow me to get the exact piece I wanted without risking a big fall.

will archer wrote: I almost always clip at least a quickdraw into the rope and I'll often use a runner or alpine draw since it isn't as stiff and is less likely to wiggle the stopper out. Occasionally on very straight crack that eats stoppers you'll see people rack them individually and clip them directly with only a biner, but it's fairly uncommon. Will

I almost never place a nut without extending it with a sling. If the placement is *SUPER* secure I'll use a quickdraw.

Extending your nut with a sling helps because nuts aren't always multi-directional pieces. If you fall just above a nut, the initial direction of pull on a nut that you clipped with a draw is going to be more perpendicular to the rock (probably gonna pull that sucker out). With a sling on it, the nut faces more of a straight-down pull.

It's also easy to generate this perpendicular force on pieces that you placed earlier in the climb, if you take or fall on a piece up higher. The rope goes tight and wants to take a straight line between the belayer/piece below your nut and the piece above your nut. This can pop the nut out if the rope doesn't have the extra play that an extended sling allows.

- i put no more than 6 nuts on a biner ... too many its hard to place with one hand and fiddle around while yr getting pumped on leads at yr limit IME ... youre also more likely to drop a biner with say 12 nuts vs 6 when pumped IMO

- i use notchless biners ... last thing i want is for the biner to get hung up on the wire when im at my limit ... this is especially true if i place a draw and clip the rope on the but before removing the nut biner

- i dont use ovals, but rather asymmetrical biners ... ive used ovals before and found that when at my limit it took a bit longer to figure out which side was "up" vs "down", taking longer to remove the biner from the nut ... with asymmetrical biners i can tell be feel alone

- when placing ... place the nut then ROTATE the biner (if asymmetrical) so that the narrow part is at the bottom (gate opening away from the rest of the nuts), then take it off ... prevents nuts dropping off

- when placing a nut in a constricting crack ... start from the top and pull it down till it bites, it allows you to lock in many more different sizes and is easier to get it right the first time ... unless the crack is irregular, dont just place it straight in, folks often get the sizing wrong then need to wiggle out the nut

- when im at my limit ill often use quickdraws on nut if the crack is fairly straight (common in squamish) ... trad draws often bunch up at the most undesirable moments when yr pumped to hell, and youll need to sort it out

;)

I can generally eyeball my gear sizes pretty well, but I like perfect placements, so sometimes I still end up fiddling between two different pieces of gear. A cam or a tricam, a nut or a hex. Ot even two sizes. I figure if it isn't going to hold a fall, no point in placing it.

I noticed at New Buck you were removing a single piece, which seemed to work out well for you, on the one mock I saw. Everyone is different, if you can nail it every time, it might work. if not it's going to make things way harder.

I like to break my nuts down into 3 biners (all noseless), 4 if I have 2 full sets or offsets.

Usually it do like 4-9, and then 10, 11, 12, 13. Or similar. I don't bother racking 1-3 or brassies unless I think I'll need aid. But then I only lead 5.6 and you usually aren't placing micro nuts for pro. My 3/4 set of nuts gets it's own biner. and that is usually like 4-10, and those are a different brand as well than my BD (Smileys) set. Those go on the back of my passive side.

I also rack my tricams the same. Pink, red, brown and blue on one biner, the next 3 sizes on another biner and then the green and grey go at the back of the rack with the extra nuts. I usually use these are belays or when a #3 camalot doesn't want to go in a flare.

Clipping nuts. Nuts are really sensitive to rope drag so I always clip a draw. If I'm close to the ground it's a short draw, 75 ft up, it could go long or short. One thing, some people don't "set" there nuts with the idea that the second will be able to just lift it out. I think the primary purpose of pro is to protect the leader (except on traverses) so I set the nut so that it's basically been fallen on. This definitely pisses some people off. Seconds can call for tension and have nut tools for a reason, I really don't care if it takes them 3 minutes to remove the nut and ruins their top rope flash.

Also, I noticed you rerack like an ice climber ;-). I mentioned it to Aim at some point. Definitely nothing wrong with that other than it increases the chances of dropped gear and more exchanges at the belay.

The system I tend to encourage is if you have a stance, shorten the draw back to doubled over, and then clip the gear end of the draw to your harness (gear still on the biner). If you don't have a stance, and it's extended, put it over your shoulder. When you get to the belay, place all the gear on the anchor or tie in strand so it can be sorted.

My wife doesn't really care too much about the nuances of climbing, but she always shows up at the belay with my gear in good condition (ie. she doesn't beat on my pink tricam till it isn't usable) and ready to rerack. Makes a big difference over a day.

Tedk wrote:I put odds on one oval and evens on another oval. I do this for a couple reasons.. 1) If I drop or loose one of the biners for whatever reason I still have small-large nuts instead of just small or just large. 2) If I am in a weird position and may only be able to reach one side of my harness I have a variety of nuts/stoppers and I can more often than not will be able to fit a #8 stopper in a crack where I planned on a #7, and visa versa. At the very least it's something I can get into the rock and clip into so I can move my body to allow me to get the exact piece I wanted without risking a big fall.

Just made me rethink the whole passive on one side, active on other. This works well for me, but if I'm hip scrumming I've had problems getting to gear. I'm now thinking put my second set of nuts and my extra tricams on the active side. This would cover about 85% of possible passive placements (tricams as nuts) and also give me some additional active placements (tricams).

Thanks for making me rethink flaw in my setup.

Nothing like a well placed stopper!
I split mine on 2 biners, large on one and small on another( not ovals but oval would work better I suppose). All my nuts that I ever use anymore are offsets ( I place 90% of cams and 10 % nuts on a pitch). I carry my passive pro on my left side first loop to the back. I rack on harness only (6 loops), only changing to a sling if it's a chimney. So I grab the biner with let's say large stoppers, figure out which goes in. You will develop an eye for it. I use one hand and my mouth to manipulate the stoppers to get the one I need out. There are chances you may drop your biner with nuts , but you will only do it once. You tend to develop "sticky fingers" as you practice placing so you don't drop gear. And don't forget those slings! It happened to me, I had all my nuts and did not bring any slings, which rendered my nuts pretty useless. Actually, I did bring slings, just not enough of them. Leading a trad pitch without slings would suck even if you placed cams only.

J. Serpico wrote: One thing, some people don't "set" there nuts with the idea that the second will be able to just lift it out. I think the primary purpose of pro is to protect the leader (except on traverses) so I set the nut so that it's basically been fallen on. This definitely pisses some people off. Seconds can call for tension and have nut tools for a reason, I really don't care if it takes them 3 minutes to remove the nut and ruins their top rope flash.

You will care if you are ever climbing anything long in the mountains and you add 3 minutes per placement because you decided to borderline fix every single piece.

Personally, I also care because I try not to piss off my climbing partners without a good reason.

There are times when you need to "set" a nut of course, but setting it to the point that "it's basically been fallen on" is rarely (never?) necessary and is just going to frustrate your second and slow you down.

Then again if you're carrying fist-sized tricams I suppose you might as well go for broke..

"Seconds can call for tension and have nut tools for a reason, I really don't care if it takes them 3 minutes to remove the nut and ruins their top rope flash. "

Make sure and remind me of this if we ever meet up, so I can go bouldering instead.

I rack micros & stoppers on three biners (light ovals), one for micros/brass (if I take them), stoppers split between the other two: small to medium on one, medium to large on the other. Spend some time at the base of crags playing with cracks correlating finger size (tip, 1st & 2nd joint; little finger to thumb) to stopper size for mid to large stoppers. Once you've done this, it's much easier to grab the right size the first time (slot finger, grab corresponding size). I always connect to rope with a sling-it only takes one incident of rope pull popping a piece so your potential 15 foot fall just turned into a potential 30 foot fall to seriously get your attention. This has worked for me for 40 years, ever since I converted from pitons. Try different things, and see what works for you. As the Teton pioneer Jack Durrance told me: "I thought there were only two rules to climbing...have fun, and don't get hurt."

The leader runs the show. Heck, as long as my traverses are well protected I am cool to spend a few minutes removing passive pro. If you can't clean pasive pro or worried about loading the rope because of it as a second, you should improve your cleaning technique, such as being more aggresive yanking on it using a biner and a sling in up and down motion. Consider bringing a hammer? Passive pro is meant to sit tight.

bearbreeder wrote:- i put no more than 6 nuts on a biner ... too many its hard to place with one hand and fiddle around while yr getting pumped on leads at yr limit IME ... youre also more likely to drop a biner with say 12 nuts vs 6 when pumped IMO - i use notchless biners ... last thing i want is for the biner to get hung up on the wire when im at my limit ... this is especially true if i place a draw and clip the rope on the but before removing the nut biner - i dont use ovals, but rather asymmetrical biners ... ive used ovals before and found that when at my limit it took a bit longer to figure out which side was "up" vs "down", taking longer to remove the biner from the nut ... with asymmetrical biners i can tell be feel alone - when placing ... place the nut then ROTATE the biner (if asymmetrical) so that the narrow part is at the bottom (gate opening away from the rest of the nuts), then take it off ... prevents nuts dropping off - when placing a nut in a constricting crack ... start from the top and pull it down till it bites, it allows you to lock in many more different sizes and is easier to get it right the first time ... unless the crack is irregular, dont just place it straight in, folks often get the sizing wrong then need to wiggle out the nut - when im at my limit ill often use quickdraws on nut if the crack is fairly straight (common in squamish) ... trad draws often bunch up at the most undesirable moments when yr pumped to hell, and youll need to sort it out ;)

+1 on all this except I haven't used draws so can't comment on that. But read the above carefully as there's a lot of good detail in there that well.

+1 especially to the notchless biners, which are a relatively new addition to my rack and which are super nice for wired nuts. I believe that BD calls these keylock biners. I picked up two of them last fall and they make a really big difference in the smoothness of things with the wires.

I don't know where you are in your learning journey (probably you're like most people and climb a lot harder than me) but I've found that taking the time to smooth out little annoyances like this to be a really valuable part of progressing on lead: take an extra minute at the beginning of the day to see that your draws aren't snarled, your gates are facing the way you want 'em, your cam triggers are untangled from each other, etc. Sounds kind of trivial but having these kinds of snarls nipping at your heels all day can really mess with your mojo.

Optimistic wrote: I don't know where you are in your learning journey (probably you're like most people and climb a lot harder than me).

This made me chuckle. I don't mean no disrespect. It's just everytime I have a question I hope that bearbreeder will chime in.

Bill Kirby wrote: This made me chuckle. I don't mean no disrespect. It's just everytime I have a question I hope that bearbreeder will chime in.

Totally agree...but I meant the OP! Definitely aware of bearbreeder's wisdom!

Ryan, I don't know, I feel like a self rescue situation for the second if the leader hits the deck or a ledge because the stopper (that would have been fixed anyway had it rremained in the rock prior to your fall) really has the potential to slow down a day and probably put a damper on things.

But that is just me. Whatever makes you comfortable is the way you should do things, but knowing there are options and making your own decisions is all part of climbing, especially trad climbing.

J. Serpico wrote:Ryan, I don't know, I feel like a self rescue situation for the second if the leader hits the deck or a ledge because the stopper (that would have been fixed anyway had it rremained in the rock prior to your fall) really has the potential to slow down a day and probably put a damper on things. But that is just me.

For 95+% of nut placements, a gentle tug will set the piece well enough to assuage any concerns about a stopper lifting out. Yanking on every stopper until it has

J. Serpico wrote: basically been fallen on.

Is simply poor technique. I have to echo the sentiments expressed above, setting every nut so it is a huge pain in the ass to clean just screams inexperience/total lack of comfort on the sharp end.

J. Serpico wrote:Whatever makes you comfortable is the way you should do things, but knowing there are options and making your own decisions is all part of climbing, especially trad climbing.

No, just no. Whatever makes you comfortable is not always the way you should do things. The decisions you make as part of a team often effect the other person. I really prefer to climb on triples, who wants to go climbing with me?! That being said, there are a lot of grey areas in climbing. This isn't one of them, there is a clear best practice for placing passive protection on lead.

If a placement absolutely needs to be very firmly set to keep the leader safe, then the leader should do so. In all other cases the nut should be set with a gentle tug and slung with the appropriate length sling. There is no decrease in the safety of the leader, just an increase in the efficiency of the team.

Optimistic wrote: Totally agree...but I meant the OP! Definitely aware of bearbreeder's wisdom!

Haha.. my bad! Sometimes my brain comprehends things so I can run my mouth.

Gentle tug... Thats what she said! No wait.. Give nuts a gentle tug 95% of the time. Thats what she said.