Will double ropes make me suck more?

Nick Votto wrote:While on the subject of halfs....Hazel sending with them. sportiva.com/community/vide… Or James Pearson youtube.com/watch?v=KABdGxa…

Two great vids...

Healyje wrote: "I really like the idea of usually clipping directly to gear with half ropes rather than using slings" Slinging is about constructing as friction-free a rope path (singular) as possible and that has nothing to do with single vs. doubles and nothing about using doubles necessarily obviates the need for appropriate slinging.

My experience was different there: I definitely was able to reduce the number of slings I'd need to use when I climbed on doubles. What I found, though, was that carrying a few extra slings and slinging intelligently obviated (love that word!) almost all of the need for a second rope.

Regarding alternating techniques twin and half on a pitch:

A generic rule: Do not change technique mid pitch?

On the other hand,

Video of pro climber changing technique mid pitch, then falling disproves generic rule?

Rope on rope rubbing is the main question. This is less desirable than girl on girl action.

Example 1: Using half technique, then clipping both ropes as twin, then fall. Both ropes will run at similar speeds through the top piece which is the most critical place. Probably fine.

Example 2: Same scenario as above using half technique, then clipping both ropes as twin. But, top piece blows. Now you fall to your next piece which has only one rope clipped. The "new" top piece has only one rope in it. No rubbing here. But, if the piece below your "new" top piece has both ropes, one will start to move up as it arrests the fall and the other is moving down because you are falling. Probably ok depending on how much tension the two ropes are putting on that piece. But, not as idea as example 1.

Example 3: Using twin technique, then split into halves, then fall. Top rope runs through top piece alone. No rubbing here. Possibly rubbing on each other at piece below with both ropes. Probably ok, but not ideal.

Example 4: Using twin technique, then splitting into halves, then fall. Top piece blows. Now, you fall onto the "new" top piece which has two ropes in it. One rope may be pinched under the other and these ropes may be moving at different rates since slack may be different in each rope. This may be the worst scenario. Are both ropes going to burn completely through and send you to your grave? Very unlikely, but?

Conclusion: videos of pro climbers don't make facts. generic rules in climbing are not valid in all scenarios.

Once again, the #1 answer: IT DEPENDS!

Hazel is a pretty awesome climber. I believe she climbs mostly trad and considers sport basically gym climbing (my kind of girl), unless something changed. I remember seeing her in a HotAches Production and was very impressed with her ability and ethics, kinda rare these days of grade chasing and speed ascents.

Basically anything by HotAches is on double ropes. The Brits and Scotts love their doubles.

Healyje, thanks, super helpful feedback. I have heard things along the line of what Optimistic said, that double ropes reduce the need for slinging substantially, but I suppose that depends a lot on the route - if it's two vertical cracks, sure, but other situations may not have much of an improvement.

Both of those pro videos are great. Of course, I never meant to imply that double ropes make other people suck, but I might not be ready for them myself :)

Optimistic wrote: My experience was different there: I definitely was able to reduce the number of slings I'd need to use when I climbed on doubles. What I found, though, was that carrying a few extra slings and slinging intelligently obviated (love that word!) almost all of the need for a second rope.

There are occasional situations in which half ropes drastically reduce rope friction, situations in which mere slinging isn't going to do the trick unless you have huge slings, and then you may be significantly lowering the protection points. But most of the time, as Optimistic says, you can manage just fine with a single rope and slings. So I don't think the argument for half ropes should be based solely on reduction of rope drag, even though they help with that. There are a bunch of other reasons. Among them are

(1) the ability to utilize zig-zagging protection points even if the route doesn't zig-zag. I consider this separate from the ordinary reduction of rope friction because the half rope user can contemplate protection placements that the single rope user just plain cannot employ at all, long slings or not.

(2) Clipping overhead protection. This requires a competent half-rope belayer, which is certainly not guaranteed. But if you have such a belayer, then you can pull up a bunch of slack and clip a high piece without being subjected to the extra slack fall length penalty if you fall making the clip. Unconventional as it may sound, a lot of the second and third clips on sport climbs would be safer with half ropes and a competent belayer. More importantly for trad climbs, half ropes allow you to place and clip marginal overhead gear without worrying about the slack penalty if you fall below the placement and it pulls. I've climbed a number of RP seams in which the ropes run straight up (so no rope drag issues at all) but the ability to clip this way makes the entire enterprise feel a lot less stressful.

(3) Better protection for both leader and second on lines that go up, traverse, and then continue up.

And of course

(4) Much better chances of surviving cut ropes.

(5) Full rope length retreats with ability to resort to just one of the strands for leading in emergencies.

(6) Greatly expanded options for self-rescue wankery if things head south.

The downsides are weight, extra demands on the belayer, handling, and complexity for the leader. If you are a dedicated gri-gri user, we should add choice of belay devices to the downsides as well. None of these are trivial; the learning curve for both belaying and leading is substantial, and while learning (and, sigh, sometimes after learning) you can create clusters with half ropes that are far worse than anything you can do with a single rope.

Like everything else with a learning curve, some folks catch on quicker than others and there are a few who never really manage to get it right and should definitely stick with single ropes for everything. If your climbing is very area-specific, then your rope choice would be dictated by the climbing you'll usually do. But if you would like to be able to go anywhere from crags to alpine routes and climb with a single system, half ropes are worth a look.

and the downside of that gaddammutherfucking spaghetti tangle....again, for the third time today.

Climbers drink more beer because of that traumatic series of events than anything else....ever....

healyje wrote:Slinging is about constructing as friction-free a rope path (singular) as possible and that has nothing to do with single vs. doubles and nothing about using doubles necessarily obviates the need for appropriate slinging.

...

Optimistic wrote:My experience was different there: I definitely was able to reduce the number of slings I'd need to use when I climbed on doubles. What I found, though, was that carrying a few extra slings and slinging intelligently obviated (love that word!) almost all of the need for a second rope.

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Yes, using doubles has the benefit of reducing the amount of slinging necessary, but it does not in any way obviate the need for each of the double ropes to be slung appropriate to its individual rope path.