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New Alpinism

Sean S. · · Thornton, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 10

James,

The way I have been operating with regards to Heart Rate leaving my target zone for the day, is that it is going to happen here and there, but the athlete needs to adjust their pace to get their heart rate back into zone as fast as possible. I drift out of mine when I zone out and start drifting faster or push really hard up a hill, but my monitor beeps when I get within 2-3 bpm of my threshold so I know to slow down.

Mathematically it is possible to average within the target zone, but spend a large portion of their workout above the target zone if there's a corresponding "easier" portion, say you start off slow, but finish hard. So, instead of getting the benefits of the body's response to being in zone 1, the body would responding during those portions of the workout in whatever zone you're in for those minutes.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

James,
It is pretty hard to analyze biking heart rates in many cases (city, or hilly, or riding in a pack). If you have a giant hill (like up a ski resort road), that is a perfect place to get some steady state cardio in. You might also want to be more determined at pushing harder on the downhills (not in traffic though).
Do you know what your max heart rate is? It is different (lower) on a bike than when hiking hills or running. The difference is enough to affect where the zones fall.
The chart/picture is cool. It shows many of the classic trends. The first 10 minutes of low heart rates while your nervous system cranks up. Then increasing trend while you slowly start pushing a bit harder. Then maybe some classic "HR creep" (which can have various causes), then a slow down at the end due to fatigue? What site are you logging those workouts on? My wife uses Garmin Connect, but it looks a bit different.

James Bellamy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

I am using micoach by addidas. It's their heart rate monitor synched up with my phone micoach app - then it uploads the info to my account. I'll post the elevation profile later. Posting this from phone so I'll hold off on the questions for now. Thanks.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

Hardrock 100 is in progress.

Any of you guys follow the Hardrock 100 mile race? It is steep and rocky enough that it is often referred to as "Hardwalk." It has 33,000 feet of climbing, and an equal amount of descents (it is a loop course). It goes over 12,000 feet passes or peaks about a dozen times. The course goes directly over the summit of Handies Peak as well (a fouteener).
Anyway, the race started this morning. Killian Jornet is/was in the lead at mile 44. Plenty of good pics and updates online.
twitter.com/iRunFar

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

Wow, that is one beautiful race course! Thanks for posting...

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I thought that it might be cool if some of us posted more details about workouts. In that vein, I'm trying to figure out how to paste a heart rate chart here of a recent hill climb (July 5th).

Heart rates during steady hill climb. 3000 feet gained, in 4.8 miles (1 hr, 50 min).

In the middle, you see we took one short break (drink and pit stop).
This trace is from my partner's HRM. Mine doesn't record. She is 50 yrs old. Max heart rate (measured) of 186 bpm. Bull S*** estimation formula would say her max was 170 bpm.
I'm 54, with a max of 182. We are of similar fitness, and my HR usually tracks hers (minus 5 points). In this case my overall average was 6 points below hers.
The hike gains steadily and finishes at a fire lookout tower at 10,400 feet elevation. We ate lunch on top, and came down without a break, in 1:20. Heart rates on the way down were 110-125.

We are in our "build up" phase of summer, where we do a series of longer/harder hikes. Yesterday, we did a 4000 foot gain, in 3 hours, finishing at 12,633 elevation (Humphrey's Peak. Highest in AZ). If anyone is interested, I can post more heart rates, or elevations profiles etc.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Tom Nyce wrote:I thought that it might be cool if some of us posted more details about workouts. In that vein, I'm trying to figure out how to paste a heart rate chart here of a recent hill climb (July 5th). In the middle, you see we took one short break (drink and pit stop). This trace is from my partner's HRM. Mine doesn't record. She is 50 yrs old. Max heart rate (measured) of 186 bpm. Bull S*** estimation formula would say her max was 170 bpm. I'm 54, with a max of 182. We are of similar fitness, and my HR usually tracks hers (minus 5 points). In this case my overall average was 6 points below hers. The hike gains steadily and finishes at a fire lookout tower at 10,400 feet elevation. We ate lunch on top, and came down without a break, in 1:20. Heart rates on the way down were 110-125. We are in our "build up" phase of summer, where we do a series of longer/harder hikes. Yesterday, we did a 4000 foot gain, in 3 hours, finishing at 12,633 elevation (Humphrey's Peak. Highest in AZ). If anyone is interested, I can post more heart rates, or elevations profiles etc.
Wow, you have access to a lot bigger hills than I do! Strong work!
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

I just started in on the 8-second max hill sprints described in the strength workouts. They seem like a really amazing workout...have other people been doing those, and if so, have they seen some good results from them? What kind of results?

Another exercise I haven't tried yet but am curious about is the sort of "upper body campus ladder" they describe, wherein you're doing double dynos, but on a ladder with pipe rungs, so that it's not a finger workout but rather an arm/back workout. Has anyone delved into those? Slightly steep price of entry on that one, namely spending an afternoon building the ladder just to give it a try. (and yes, I do know that a standard campus board doesn't just work your fingers)

Jumi-Jakke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 0

Hey Optimistic !

I am just planning my max strengh training during base period. Have You been happy with results from hill sprints ?

Also wondering If I understood this right, If I do 2 hill sprint sessions in a week and pull up program, are these two workouts enough for max strengh training (seems too easy ? Or is it ?) Kind of wondering should I do normal gym sessions or hill sprints/pul up program ?

Have 3 weeks left in my transition period, when finished will give full report to forum how did it go...

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Jumi-Jakke wrote:Hey Optimistic ! I am just planning my max strengh training during base period. Have You been happy with results from hill sprints ? Also wondering If I understood this right, If I do 2 hill sprint sessions in a week and pull up program, are these two workouts enough for max strengh training (seems too easy ? Or is it ?) Kind of wondering should I do normal gym sessions or hill sprints/pul up program ? Have 3 weeks left in my transition period, when finished will give full report to forum how did it go...
I haven't done enough sessions (only 3 or 4) of them to say for sure, but they certainly feel awesomely full-value, and the subsequent times I've gone uphill with a full pack have seemed to feel better.

The metric that I think will be more meaningful, though, is being able to do more of them in a row without getting completely thrashed. For me, the fourth rep is dramatically slower than the first three. So I think I have a very long way to go with this exercise.

Curious to see how you make out!

Also:
1) has anyone tried the treadmill handwalking exercise from the same chapter? Impressions?

2) Has anyone built and tried the pipe-rung campus ladder they show? Was trying (not very hard!) to picture how to build it, thinking of using a couple of lengths of threaded rod running inside the top and bottom rungs to secure the rails to the pipes. Or just undersize the holes for the in the rails and hammer the pipes into the holes? Sure would hate for the thing to come apart in the middle of a dyno!
Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40

Optimistic/J-J,

I was under the impression that hill sprints fell into the muscular endurance portion of training, rather than max strength? Comments?

I started treadmill handwalking last week. 4 sets of 4 1-minute reps with 1-minute rests between reps. Did mine on Monday morning this week. Still sore throughout my upper body and my abs. By the last set, I'm ready to call it in. There's a heavy mental component in it, as well. Vary the speed of the treadmill a bit-- slow and faster both present their muscular challenges.

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67

Hey Johnny d,

The Hill Sprints are definitely in the Max Strength portion of the book. They're presented as an alternative to regular weightlifting styles of training; and instead use steep hills, tires, or sleds.

You may be thing of the water jug carries which are included under the Mascular Endurance part of the book.

I have another 5 weeks (first rest week is next week) before starting muscular endurance part of the program. My big concern will be how to accomodate the 4 week climbing specific portion without a takin a month off of work!

Optimistic,

Another option, instead of multiple pipe rungs is to build a salmon ladder: multiple pipe slots, with a single bar you move with you explosively.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
FosterK wrote:Hey Johnny d, The Hill Sprints are definitely in the Max Strength portion of the book. They're presented as an alternative to regular weightlifting styles of training; and instead use steep hills, tires, or sleds. You may be thing of the water jug carries which are included under the Mascular Endurance part of the book. I have another 5 weeks (first rest week is next week) before starting muscular endurance part of the program. My big concern will be how to accomodate the 4 week climbing specific portion without a takin a month off of work! Optimistic, Another option, instead of multiple pipe rungs is to build a salmon ladder: multiple pipe slots, with a single bar you move with you explosively.
That was my understanding also of the hill sprints. I really appreciate that they've included some of these outdoor exercises in the book, very nice touch. Many of us spend quite enough time under fluorescent lights as it is without having to log more training time indoors as well!

Are you really serious on that salmon thing? That sounds completely nuts! I feel like I'd miss and end up with the bar lodged in my liver or something. 'Course, I avoided campus training in general up until a few months ago, and so far (taking care to follow all the various precautions like warming up, not down campusing, etc) that has been a really good addition for me and actually ridiculously fun.
Sean S. · · Thornton, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 10

Chiming in on the current topic: I am on my last week of Max Str, with the big drop in hours. I have been doing my Max Str workouts in the weight room since I have easy access to one. I did notice over the last 7 weeks that I have been able to increase weight on each of the four exercises, getting up to an added 120% body weight for squats and added 100% body weight on 18" box step ups. I have seen this translate into some of my climbs, hikes, and scrambles, where I have started carrying 1 or 2 gallon jugs of water on my longer zone 1 days and trying to get in a lot of elevation gain and although I still slow, I can definitely move more consistently on steep sections with a pack than I could several months ago. My most recent long day was 8.5 miles with close to 3,200' of climb with 2 gallons of water in 3:53. So I would say the weight room workouts definitely do give a solid benefit, but I can feel that it does need to be converted into muscular endurance to really transfer into the alpine realm. So, I have been wondering if the Hill Sprints transfer over faster, and how the big days out will be after some conversion from the Max Str recruitment training to muscular endurance. I'll do my best to keep everyone posted on that. But, I am looking forward to using the treadmill walks and incorporating those into my M.E. workouts.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Jonny d wrote: Comments? I started treadmill handwalking last week. 4 sets of 4 1-minute reps with 1-minute rests between reps. Did mine on Monday morning this week. Still sore throughout my upper body and my abs. By the last set, I'm ready to call it in. There's a heavy mental component in it, as well. Vary the speed of the treadmill a bit-- slow and faster both present their muscular challenges.
It really does look like it'd be an incredible workout. What speeds do you use?

I wonder if the routine you describe above could go a long way toward being a core workout all by itself? Maybe that plus their "kayaker" plus the hanging leg raises? More and more I'm appreciating the critical importance of core strength to climbing...really didn't understand that before.

The book says that they've seen a surprising amount of applicability to climbing with with the treadmill exercise...I'd be interested to hear how you feel like it's working out for you on the rock.
FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67
Sean S. wrote: So, I have been wondering if the Hill Sprints transfer over faster, and how the big days out will be after some conversion from the Max Str recruitment training to muscular endurance.
I'm not sure that they would necessarilly transfer over faster, and I would have concerns ensuring that progressive, structured loading is employed compared to traditional barbell training methods. Do share your experience though!

Edit: As an aside: why is this topic still in Mountaineering and not in the Training forum?
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
Optimistic wrote: It really does look like it'd be an incredible workout. What speeds do you use? I wonder if the routine you describe above could go a long way toward being a core workout all by itself? Maybe that plus their "kayaker" plus the hanging leg raises? More and more I'm appreciating the critical importance of core strength to climbing...really didn't understand that before. The book says that they've seen a surprising amount of applicability to climbing with with the treadmill exercise...I'd be interested to hear how you feel like it's working out for you on the rock.
Forget the "kayaker." It is a nonsense exercise; not functional for anything that I can think of. Certainly not applicable to kayaking (which I do).
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Tom Nyce wrote: Forget the "kayaker." It is a nonsense exercise; not functional for anything that I can think of. Certainly not applicable to kayaking (which I do).
Could you expand on that a little? These guys have gotten some pretty impressive results using their program, so "nonsense" seems like a strong word in this context.
Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40

It really does look like it'd be an incredible workout. What speeds do you use?
I'd be interested to hear how you feel like it's working out for you on the rock.

Right now, I use a combo of speed settings from 0.5 to 0.9.

Just in my second week, so not sure how it'll translate onto the rock.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
Optimistic wrote: Could you expand on that a little? These guys have gotten some pretty impressive results using their program, so "nonsense" seems like a strong word in this context.
The core workout is great. I'm just pointing out that there are better exercises than the "Kayaker," and a substitution may give have better results. Even the name is a misnomer. Although the position is similar, the pulling/pushing are reversed from when you are kayaking.
Several places in the book, the authors mention that they are trying to convey principles, and the details shouldn't be "set in stone." People should feel free to make substitutions for various reasons that apply to their own particular situation.
Instead of the kayaker, I substitute "Standing Russian Twist." I use a tilted Olympic bar when I'm at home. At my gym they have a nice gizmo called a "landmine." to put the end of the bar in. Check out "landmine exercises" on youtube. Some of the advantages (compared to kayaker) are: 1) longer kinetic chain involved, from your hands all the way through to your feet. 2) your spine is in a safer position during SRT. The curled forward spine position of the kayaker, combined with twisting is somewhat riskier. 3) the back side of my torso is weaker than my front (common with climbers), and SKCR has few exercises that work the back in extension. Subbing the SRT adds a good "posture strengthener."
In real kayaking, your back is straighter, and the torque on your body is in the other direction. You pull to the rear with the lower hand, while pushing forward on the upper hand. This is safer, and happens to be more like climbing as well (where you hold yourself in with the lower hand while reaching up and forward with the other hand.
I've been doing Scott's Killer Core routine for a few weeks now, and really like it. As recommended in the book, I'm doing a single set of everything as a warmup before my regular strength training workout.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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