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Retro Bolting/Chopping Bolts

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
caribouman1052 wrote:Does anyone reading this forum do any hiking, backpacking, maybe backcountry skiing? Isn't there an ethic called L.N.T., Leave No Trace? If we can do those sports without leaving a trace, aka "preserving the resource for future generations", why can't we climb without leaving a trace? I thought the big idea that Chouinard promoted in, what was it? The 1973 catalog? was to climb "clean", to preserve the resource. Who is worse? The aid climber who climbs the route, leaving not a shred of evidence, or the free climber who rap-bolts the entire thing, and once on the ground, "frees" the route? Who has done more damage to the rock? Who has done more damage to humanity?
Since the only time LNT comes up is to criticize folks who participate in a different sport (or sub-sport) than ourselves, why isn't it called "Other people should leave no trace"?

BTW, I've been backpacking recently, guess what, there's plenty of traces.
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
jeff lebowski wrote:My opinion: learn to be a better climber (a general statement and not directed at the OP). A 5.7X route on solid rock is within the abilities of most climbers. Climbing can be a head game and IMO this aspect of the sport is what separates it from most other sports. I'm actually surprised that more folks don't appreciate this fact. Many times I have seen a 5.11 crack climber fall apart when faced with a runout 5.9 climb. Yet another, less strong and technically proficient climber can tackle the same 5.9 runout without a second thought. That type of scenario is somewhat unique to climbing and should be celebrated rather than eliminated by adding bolts to every runout climb. If you don't enjoy this aspect of climbing then there is top-roping, sport climbing, gym climbing, etc. The options are endless. Imposing your will on others by adding bolts is as wrong as imposing your will on others by chopping an already established sport climb.
Very well put ...This should have rapped up this BS.With regards Joan whats her name male or female this person is just not too bright or is acting thick..
Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
Mark E Dixon wrote: Since the only time LNT comes up is to criticize folks who participate in a different sport (or sub-sport) than ourselves, why isn't it called "Other people should leave no trace"? BTW, I've been backpacking recently, guess what, there's plenty of traces.
LNT now has reccomendations specific to rock climbing and other outdoor activities. It would be interesting to start a thread comparing them.
caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Ah no, I didn't bring up LNT to abuse other sports, I brought it up to point out that truly LNT/ clean climbing will be riskier than climbing with bolts. As 20kN points out, this presence or lack of solid gear can have severe consequences for a human.
The bottom line is that we have to choose between human safety and natural resources.

Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
caribouman1052 wrote:Ah no, I didn't bring up LNT to abuse other sports, I brought it up to point out that truly LNT/ clean climbing will be riskier than climbing with bolts. As 20kN points out, this presence or lack of solid gear can have severe consequences for a human. The bottom line is that we have to choose between human safety and natural resources.
Well it seems a simple choice ..if one does not like risk take up another sport such as golf or simular.. or at worst stick to well bolted sport routes. There are still some rock climbers that really like being on the edge of perhaps serious injury (as of old).Fully bolted climbs are a different pastime/sport altogether to trad climbing ...with perhaps the odd examples such as the crack climbs of Indian Creek .I have noticed climbers remember more vividly a trad climb they had a bit of a fright on rather than any one pitch sport route ..Its fine for those who learn to climb in the gym wanting the same security outside ...and so sport climbing was born.I hope in the future they leave the trad routes alone ...but I doult it.
Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
caribouman1052 wrote:Ah no, I didn't bring up LNT to abuse other sports, I brought it up to point out that truly LNT/ clean climbing will be riskier than climbing with bolts.
I didn't mean to imply we should bash other sports. Just a bit of thread drift on my part.

caribouman1052 wrote:The bottom line is that we have to choose between human safety and natural resources.
I don't think it's this black and white.

First, nobody is forcing people to lead R or X rated routes. Everyone has a choice; there are plenty of well protected routes out there.

Second, many scary climbs can be toproped if someone wants to do them safely.

Third, people might choose to try an R or X rated climb, backing off if necessary, and eventually find a way to do it with clean protection. I have done this on numerous occasions and enjoy trying to figure it out.

Fourth, people can mitigate risk by training to the point that falls would be extremely unlikely on their R or X rated project.

Finally, adding additional bolts does not guarantee safety. I have seen far more people injured on well protected routes than on runout ones.

Human safety and natural resource preservation are not necessarily in opposition.
chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Seventh, there shall be museum pieces preserved for future generations of 5.10 slab climbers. These brave souls eschew gym 'climbing' for a routine of no warm-ups, onsight only, mixed into their multi-sport rad lifestyle.

caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Geir,
I didn't think you were implying we should bash other sports; Dixon implied that I was, by bringing up LNT. Joan likes to stir the pot, thus we are way off subject. I agree with all of what you are saying, even the bit about the choice between safety and resource preservation not being black & white.

More drift: interesting, what you said about more bolts not necessarily being safer. I started as a trad climber, in an area known for runouts. I learned not to take chances, not to climb harder than I was certain I could handle. I took four lead falls in 17 years of climbing, and was dropped twice to the floor from the top of a gym... maybe we need a return to that approach, the "don't dare fall" way of climbing.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
jeff lebowski wrote:My opinion: learn to be a better climber (a general statement and not directed at the OP). A 5.7X route on solid rock is within the abilities of most climbers. Climbing can be a head game and IMO this aspect of the sport is what separates it from most other sports. I'm actually surprised that more folks don't appreciate this fact. Many times I have seen a 5.11 crack climber fall apart when faced with a runout 5.9 climb. Yet another, less strong and technically proficient climber can tackle the same 5.9 runout without a second thought. That type of scenario is somewhat unique to climbing and should be celebrated rather than eliminated by adding bolts to every runout climb. If you don't enjoy this aspect of climbing then there is top-roping, sport climbing, gym climbing, etc. The options are endless. Imposing your will on others by adding bolts is as wrong as imposing your will on others by chopping an already established sport climb.
This answer that should be posted over and over again in every relevant thread.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
caribouman1052 wrote:Geir, I didn't think you were implying we should bash other sports; Dixon implied that I was, by bringing up LNT. Joan likes to stir the pot, thus we are way off subject. I agree with all of what you are saying, even the bit about the choice between safety and resource preservation not being black & white. More drift: interesting, what you said about more bolts not necessarily being safer. I started as a trad climber, in an area known for runouts. I learned not to take chances, not to climb harder than I was certain I could handle. I took four lead falls in 17 years of climbing, and was dropped twice to the floor from the top of a gym... maybe we need a return to that approach, the "don't dare fall" way of climbing.
CB- In your earlier post you imply that aid climbers leave no trace. This is incorrect. Check out some of the aid climbs in Utah- talk about ugly rock scars!
All climbing and all wilderness activity will leave a trace. Yet you seem to ignore the impacts of your preferred climbing style while highlighting the impact of other styles.

As for your last point, maybe "we" need to cut back on telling other folks how to climb?

I'm with Lebowski, there's room to share the resource among adventure climbers and sport climbers. And yes, David, I think it is worthwhile preserving museum pieces.

PS Joan is Elena Sera Jose, our long time troll, who must be working some slow night shifts. Wonder if her employer knows she is surfing the internet?
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
caribouman1052 wrote: If we can do those sports without leaving a trace
Except we dont. Not even close. Have you ever seen a hiking trail? A CLEAR cut of dirt that extends for miles (even hundreds of miles sometimes), with worn rocks, destroyed exposed tree roots, damaged grass, eroded water channels (induced by humans), wooden shoring, ropes, trash, piss, ect. That's a hell of a lot less LNT than placing a bolt it.

LNT is physically impossible. There is literately absolutely no way to do any of the activities you mentioned without leaving a trace. LNT is a really silly slogan because by its very nature LNT is impossible. "Limit your trace" may be a more appropriate substitute. Then, of course, the question is to what extent do we limit our trace? Why stop at bolts? Why not say no ropes? No chalk? No shoes? All that stuff leaves a trace.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Geir wrote: Finally, adding additional bolts does not guarantee safety. I have seen far more people injured on well protected routes than on runout ones.
That's kind of a logical fallacy. Adding bolts greatly improves safety when looked at across a large sample pool. You see more people injured on safe routes than dangerous routes because there are far, far more people that climb safe routes, there are far more noobs on safe routes and climbers are far more willing to do something risky when they think they are safe (e.g. not many people do a dyno when runout 30'). We could say driving is 40x more dangerous than rock climbing because there are 40x more people killed driving than rock climbing. However we know that's BS and the only reason there are more traffic fatalities is because there are 40x more drivers than rock climbers.

But yes, we could add a bolt every 1' to every route in the world and that would not absolutely guarantee safety—nothing does except choosing not to climb.
caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Mark, I'm assuming CB is referring to me?

The troll waved a flag, like a toreador, and I charged like a bull. What an idiot I am! I have to laugh at myself, and I hope she's had a good laugh too.

You're right, I shouldn't tell other people how to climb. I've thought about all this way too much for way too long. I read the original post because I was curious to see if "the bolt controversy" had changed any in thirty years. It hasn't.

In defense of my own style of climbing, I do what I can to minimize the damage. When I'm aid climbing, it's 90% clean, 5% iron, and 5% bolts at belays. There are some techniques, pin-stacks and a few others, than minimize damage even when hammering. I do more aid than free partly due to my belay device being manual feed, partly because I'm not a bold free climber and partly because I'm coming back from twelve years off.

20kN, forums are a place for trying to figure out what the "trace limits" are going to be; what you as climbers deem acceptable. However, a nihilistic attitude undercuts the discussion: "Since we can't meet the "no trace" standard, we should just give up" ends any possible discussion immediately. So, as far as any thoughts you might have about LNT or someone retro-bolting one of my routes,
you're right.

Cheers,
Caribouman

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
caribouman1052 wrote:Mark, I'm assuming CB is referring to me? The troll waved a flag, like a toreador, and I charged like a bull. What an idiot I am! I have to laugh at myself, and I hope she's had a good laugh too. You're right, I shouldn't tell other people how to climb. I've thought about all this way too much for way too long. I read the original post because I was curious to see if "the bolt controversy" had changed any in thirty years. It hasn't. Cheers, Caribouman
Guess I should have said CM- having a stressful night here at work myself!

Don't you think there's been some progress on the bolt debate? At least a little bit more live and let live?

I would like to see plenty of adventure routes left. I agree with USBRIT that there's a real risk of the US following Europe's lead into ever more 'plaisir' routes. I part from him though, as I believe that the way forward is to emphasize how worthwhile adventure climbing is, NOT how cowardly or base sport/plaisir climbing might be. Becuase frankly, both sport and adventure are pretty good!
caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Mark,
I'm probably too opinionated to be reasonable about the damage caused by fixed pins & bolting.

I don't think there has been one bit of forward progress - I've been out of the climbing world for a while, and I return to find retro-bolting of trad routes? I would say that's not "live and let live", I'd say that's progress for only one group. When I left climbing, there was sort of a detente between the sport climbers and the trad climbers: these areas are sport, those are trad, they didn't mix.
I personally would be ok with sport and trad in the same area... just not the style I saw photos of in the French Alps, 1/2" bolts 6" from perfect hand cracks. To me, that was "bolting a trad route". It was kind of odd & pointless, and looked sort of like steel industrial grafitti. A very U.S. perspective, I'm sure.

I agree with you about the mental/social method needed to maintain what you refer to as adventure climbing (trad?): don't put the other method down (let's face it, the French really did propel the sport as a whole by creating "sport" climbing, and increasing the acceptability of falling), emphasize the difference.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
caribouman1052 wrote:"Since we can't meet the "no trace" standard, we should just give up"
I dont think that at all. I never said anything like that. I only pointed out that LNT is kind of a lame term because by its very nature it is impossible to do. But even though 100% LNT cant be accomplished, climbers should still minimize their impact to a degree that allows our climbing resources to remain intact for future climbers, and this can be accomplished in. Examples include using stainless bolts instead of plated steel, not hiking off trail, picking up after yourself, cleaning up rouge trash, ect.
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
David Sahalie wrote:The best way to minimize impact is to stop using chalk.
What!!....Never.... How are climbers going to find the holds ?
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
David Sahalie wrote:The best way to minimize impact is to stop using chalk.
The best way to minimize impact is to dig yourself a dying hole and jump in.

Thinking that smelling your own farts actually minimizes your impact is absurd.

Oh Elenore? Where are though dear Elenore?
Joan Lee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 140

I got a hammer, a set of pitons and plenty of tat to go make some impact! Bring it!
P.s. what would an employer say if they knew their employee is climbing trad? ....X rated trad!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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