Will double ropes make me suck more?

Bill Lawry wrote:
Abrade the ropes: are folks out there falling a lot on doubles/halves?

Optimistic wrote:
The abrasion I'm talking about doesn't occur over repeated falls, it occurs over milliseconds during a single fall. Again, I'm not positive that I'm describing the scenario correctly, but that's how I learned it.

Bill Lawry continues ...

I wasn't clear about what I meant (shouldn't post while in a hurry). Although it seems like a potential source of wear and tear, I am also thinking it would develop slowly enough that it would be noticed and evaluated between climbs. Or that it would be so slow that it would not matter in the life of the rope.

And I'll confess that doubles are new to me ... if I think falls are likely, I am more inclined to take a fat single and a tag line despite some arguments about the redundancy in a pair of doubles.

AndySkol wrote:Great post, bearbreeder. Squamish is where I climb the most and have the most aspirations, so that feedback is very useful. It seems like even in squamish it would be an advantage to use shorter (or no) slings, and be able to protect traverses better, etc. Maybe I’m not climbing hard enough, but most of what I’m doing now isn’t exactly straight up, though it’s not all over the place either. And I am often not confident enough (weather, ability) to only bring the single rope. Great point on the hauling, too - I’ve never done it but I plan to be pushing my second more so that may be a major deal. On popular or long climbs I’d rather not take the extra time to haul, but that decision could be made on the day. What tag line do you use? How much does it suck to haul a 20-30L bag with a skinny half rope? I remember you use half ropes some places, bearbreeder - where do they make sense for you and what is the difference vs Squamish multipitch stuff?

usually the traverses in squamish are fairly well protected ... i cant say ive ever wished for doubles, on lead or seconding ... but then theres tons of stuff here i havent done yet either

on the harder more vertical pitches, climbing with a pack can be a biatch especially and quickly tire the second out .. especially if those pitches are at their limit normally (on moderate ground it doesnt matter) ... many parties opt not to climb with a pack for this reason, which carries its own risks in terms of rain and first aid gear

if you do bring a back a small one such as a BD bullet/bee will work for almost anything in squamish in the climbing season ... you can haul it fairly easily on a half rope tag line by putting the line in the other slot of your autoblock device ... and hand pulling it occasionally pulling it through the autoblock ... this is useful as if the pack gets stuck the second can climb up on autoblock and you can switch between them, just like belaying two seconds

also if you use a half rope as a tag line ... you have the option of climbing on doubles, just tie in and use double rope technique ... the belayer just needs to be more conscious of the thinner line

the other thing to note as to using halves as twins ... your impact force will go up by around 20% with the same weight and the catch will be less soft

for me personally half ropes make sense for

- climbs where the approach is longer (to split the weight)

- rockfall and sharp edges are more common

- pitches are more traversing with widely spaced gear, not continuous cracks (hard to aid if needed)

- afternoon thunder storm are more frequent

- the climbing is more moderate

- the belayer is fairly skilled in half ropes (if they arent use em as twins)

in squamish the best and most prolific climbers almost all use singles while climbing here ... if needed theyll bring a tag ...

in the canadian rockies however the conditions i listed are more common, so many folks climb on halves



;)

Thanks again, bearbreeder. I can’t remember a pitch where it was hard to protect the second unless I was desperate myself (a different problem!)

I assume you aren’t carrying approach shoes in a bullet or bbee, just some food, water, first aid, jackets? Does the second really get tired out with such a small pack? Good point on the double option with the half tag line.

I don’t quite follow the “hard to aid if needed” comment - can you explain further?

The rest of those points make perfect sense to me. Do you use a lighter tag sometimes instead of a half rope, and if so what?

Nice shot, cruel shoes is on my list :)

i usually carry the approach shoes if its moderate ground ...

if its hard then i clip it to the pack (use a locker !!!) and haul the pack up ...

it depends on the second, if they are already at their limit then seconding with a pack might not be too much fun and wastes their energy .... some pitches, especially chimneys are a total biatch with a pack ...

often in squamish you can aid through the cruxes on continuous cracks, so there is less of a need to retreat ... many of these lines were aid lines before they became free climbs

also some of the line require some form of easy aiding which is easier on a single rope IMO, and more importantly the second can more easily ascend a single rope

i only use half ropes for tags ... the thought of having the rope stuck terrifies me !!!

;)

Interesting to read those responses from the Sterling and Mammut guys. Even though I do go back and forth on hard pitches, I always thought it was technically a no no. I've thought that for so long that I don't even remember where I learned it. I'm very surprised to see rope manufacturers being so nonchalant about "mixing" techniques.

FWIW, I've melted a hole in the sheath of a rope, just by pulling another rope over it. I was at the anchor at Indian Creek, probably faffing around at the top of some 180 foot pitch. I don't remember why I did it, but I pulled a meter or so of rope through a biner that had another rope in it (same kind of action that we've talked about above). It melted a hole right to the core and we had to chop the rope.

Ryan Williams wrote:Interesting to read those responses from the Sterling and Mammut guys. Even though I do go back and forth on hard pitches, I always thought it was technically a no no. I've thought that for so long that I don't even remember where I learned it. I'm very surprised to see rope manufacturers being so nonchalant about "mixing" techniques. FWIW, I've melted a hole in the sheath of a rope, just by pulling another rope over it. I was at the anchor at Indian Creek, probably faffing around at the top of some 180 foot pitch. I don't remember why I did it, but I pulled a meter or so of rope through a biner that had another rope in it (same kind of action that we've talked about above). It melted a hole right to the core and we had to chop the rope.

i can see how one could melt a rope if one rope is fixed and the other is moving

however when someone falls on halves, both ropes should be fixed as you should be grabbing both, for better grip if nothing else

in that case the difference will be mainly in the stretch and whatever slack there is out

remember that belaying two seconds in autoblock through half ropes threaded through the same biner is considered acceptable ... while the forces are less than a lead fall, theres still stretch and slack in the system when one second falls and the other doesnt ... rope on rope rubbing action

not to mention the popular munter hitch where the friction of rope on rope action is what gives it its braking power

some manufacturer should do a test if they havent done so already and publish the results

;)

Ryan Williams wrote:Interesting to read those responses from the Sterling and Mammut guys. Even though I do go back and forth on hard pitches, I always thought it was technically a no no. I've thought that for so long that I don't even remember where I learned it. I'm very surprised to see rope manufacturers being so nonchalant about "mixing" techniques. FWIW, I've melted a hole in the sheath of a rope, just by pulling another rope over it. I was at the anchor at Indian Creek, probably faffing around at the top of some 180 foot pitch. I don't remember why I did it, but I pulled a meter or so of rope through a biner that had another rope in it (same kind of action that we've talked about above). It melted a hole right to the core and we had to chop the rope.

Yikes! This was just from pulling it through by hand? I'm assuming it was the rope you DIDN'T pull that was damaged? I guess in theory that would be slightly better in the double-rope fall situation...unless you fell, burned through the rope that wasn't getting loaded, and then your top piece blew. That would be awkward.

given the areas that you listed as being your primary areas, you would be much better off with a good single rope, and a really skinny trail line for those routes where you need 2 ropes to descend.

another good option would be to have a good single line, and a second half rope that you use as a trail line. then, if you got in a situation where you wanted to lead on half ropes (due to wandering protection, big crack switch, whatever) you could switch to half rope belay for that pitch. even then, if that pitch is less than half the length of your primary line, you could just tie in to both ends of that line, and lead the pitch via half-rope method. your second would just tie in to the middle of the rope.

don't get me wrong, half ropes are great - in certain areas. but for squamish, i think it would blow to belay somebody on a bunch of pitches with halfs.

I use single or double (half ropes) when the situation dictates. I'd actually prefer doubles on short routes (with constant ground fall potential), but dealing with 400ft of rope on a 40-60ft pitch is a PITA. Maybe I'll buy some shorty (rope ends) for that at some point.

Generally I use them on wandering routes and routes with roofs, or anything that requires long rappels.

Exceptions are slabs. If it's slabby I prefer a single and a retrieval line (or trail another single).

I think the only way to know if you prefer them is to use them.

Yes, unless you have flawless rope management skills, you will have more tangles and cluster fucks than with a single, worse if you use those 7.8mm dental floss ropes. 8.5 doubles are pretty decent diameter.

I clip both ropes to the carabiner for the first two or three clips to avoid hitting a ledge.
When the route starts wandering, I split the ropes up if necessary to reduce rope drag.
Rejoining them later doesn´t compromise safety, it only makes the ropes twist around each other which can be unpleasant.

Personally, I just never have found it necessary to clip both half ropes together. But whatever. One thing to be aware of is that if you split your lines and later clip them together, the forces on the piece where the split ropes have rejoined are going to lift that piece if there is a fall, so that piece needs to have good directional stability or else it will zipper.

I don't get why people mix and match techniques. One of the big advantages on shorter routes and/or close to the ground is you can call out, clipping red. In theory your belayer should be able to lock blue and give slack on red. So if you fall while clipping you might not hit the ground.

In this same situation on a single, yo. MMight end up hitting the ground (or a ledge) if you fall during the clip because you'll have another 3+ft of slack in the system during the clip.

I'm fairly certain this is why doubles are so popular in Great Britain, short hard routes where ground fall is always a ppossibility on singles if you blow a placement or a clip.

If you're worried about groundfall/ledgefall due to rope stretch, clip them both. If you're worried about slipping while making the clip, with several extra feet of slack out, only clip one at a time; you can still them both through the piece, just do it one at a time.

I often clip both through the first piece. Less often the first few, or recombine them later, but sometimes. I don't think it's a safety issue, but it plausibly adds rope drag.

kevin neville wrote:If you're worried about groundfall/ledgefall due to rope stretch, clip them both. If you're worried about slipping while making the clip, with several extra feet of slack out, only clip one at a time; you can still them both through the piece, just do it one at a time. I often clip both through the first piece. Less often the first few, or recombine them later, but sometimes. I don't think it's a safety issue, but it plausibly adds rope drag.

True, you can clip them to the same piece, but only one at a time to avoid the extra distance during the clip. I suppose rope stretch is an issue, but looking at elongation of doubles and singles, it's not always that much greater. I think it's a mental thing for some, thinner rope = more stretch. This may or may not be true with your particular ropes.

Even though I am still very interested in the benefits of half ropes, based on this discussion I've decided to go with a lighter single and a lighter half rope as tag/backup/light haul line rather than climbing on half ropes most of the time. I believe if I were climbing in a different area I'd make a different decision, but I don't want to be the only guy in Squamish climbing on half ropes and possibly sucking more for that particular reason. The lighter half rope will probably also come in handy for ski mountaineering and I could always buy another to make a pair.

Thanks so much for all the advice.

just do what someone else suggested use 2 singles or half your single and tie into both ends.

for short climbs you can practice like this and get a feel for it without investing in something that won't necessarily be useful at you local crag. the flip side is, just because it's not useful in squamish doesn't mean it's not the shit on a road trip.

all that said, it seems like doubles are fringe vs the status quo any place you climb in NA so needing doubles is probably never an issue, even if they might make life easier.

There are good technical reasons for two ropes, but the flip side is if you climb with whispers or shouts of doubt running through your head. Two ropes are better than one.

beensandbagged wrote:There are good technical reasons for two ropes, but the flip side is if you climb with whispers or shouts of doubt running through your head. Two ropes are better than one.

Well put. As soon as I get rid of the fear, I'll climb with two ropes. Or maybe three.

While on the subject of halfs....Hazel sending with them.

sportiva.com/community/vide…

Or James Pearson

youtube.com/watch?v=KABdGxa…

Doubles have their place, as was pointed out on routes which wander, which have sharp edges, and have roofs. But by and large on western granite, you aren't going to need them 99% of the time. In a place like Squamish it would be some very route-specific advantages to even bother.

I fallen on them relentlessly - it's fine, forget about all the impact force business, that is way overthinking the proposition.

Don't let anyone fool you, belaying doubles competently is a high-skill activity that's ugly the first few goes.

"I really like the idea of usually clipping directly to gear with half ropes rather than using slings"

Slinging is about constructing as friction-free a rope path (singular) as possible and that has nothing to do with single vs. doubles and nothing about using doubles necessarily obviates the need for appropriate slinging.