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Will double ropes make me suck more?

Original Post
AndySkol · · Seattle, WA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

too long, didn’t read version:

Will dealing with double ropes make my partner and I super slow at block lead belays, and make me (more) afraid of falling, or climb worse due to hauling up as much as 5lb more? Or warm and fuzzy due to short (or no) slings, shorter potential falls, rockfall safety, and two lovely colors?

long version:

I got so much good advice on my X4 thread that I can't resist asking this forum another question. I’m aware of the standard advantages of half ropes (wandering routes, shorter slings, protecting the second better on a traverse, redundancy) but still not clear if they will make me suck more.

I climb mostly in Squamish, Washington Pass, Leavenworth and a little at Smith. I have been in a couple situations in the last year where weather has made retreat with a single 60m unpleasant, so I want a system where I have two ropes.

I retired a nice 9.5 due to a rockfall induced core shot so I now only have a 10.2 non-dry single for cragging. I need a new system for multipitch rock where there is a possibility of retreat (say due to weather or sucking at climbing, even if there is a walk off) or long rappels.

I’m recovering from an ACL reconstruction so I’m being extremely conservative about falls (not taking any or hanging) and leading about 5.9 trad. However I’m following stronger and expect a few notches to open up soon as my fall tolerance begins to come back, and I don’t want a double rope system to get in the way of coming back to those grades.

Now I know that good climbers climb plenty hard on half ropes and singles, but I’m not sure what that will mean to me when pumped and sketched. And I just don’t see many half ropes around here though of course they are more popular in the gunks and UK.

I am not too comfortable with the 55kg UIAA test for half ropes (I am 80kg). The 8.6mm Beal Cobra II takes 18-20 falls in the 55kg test which sounds like a lot, but the 9.1mm Beal Joker takes 24-26 in the 55kg test and only 5 to 6 in the 80kg test. I realize these are unlikely high fall factor falls, but still I don’t want to feel like I can take only a few falls on each half rope. Even as my knee gets better I won’t whip a lot, but I certainly don't want to wonder if it's okay to fall due to the rope. On the other hand, in alpine environments falling is much less likely due to climbing easier grades but rockfall is a real concern so I think the advantage goes to halves there.

I really like the idea of usually clipping directly to gear with half ropes rather than using slings - I use shoulder length slings on most pieces today and it sometimes doesn’t make me very happy to add that to the potential fall. And even in Squamish where most crack systems are vertical, there is often some amount of wander or transition from one crack to another. Maybe this would be less the case on harder stuff.

So I’m wondering whether I should take the risk and get solid 8.5ish half ropes, which would allow climbing in a party of 3 (not sure how much I would do this, but possible) and provide two dynamic ropes in case of various epic scenarios, or go the conservative route and get a reasonably light single like a joker and a tag line. I’d be tempted to get a half rope tag line like the new 7.3 beal gully because I think I’d crap my pants if I had to lead anything challenging on a 6mm static to retrieve a stuck rope. That combination would be about a pound lighter than the 8.5s, but at the end of an (admittedly rare) 60m pitch the leader is hauling almost 5lb less. At a more reasonable 30m the difference is only 2.5 lb, maybe I should eat a lighter lunch. Also, I’m not too excited about asking my second to pack a rope (though the gully is under 5lb), and if I’m trailing it doubles seem like they would make more sense since the ropes are both out to manage. I don’t really see myself hauling in the near future, though if you told me it could help me suck less, I'd listen.

Thanks for reading if you’ve made it this far, I would love any feedback on double ropes and whether to take the $300 splash to try them.

Linnaeus · · ID · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0

Yes doubles. I think you are overly concerned with the UIAA fall ratings. Those are lab tests that aren't necc. accurately reflected by real-world falls. And the number of falls that a rope is rated for is in regard to it's ability to absorb force in a fall (i.e. the force generated on climber/gear), not the number of falls a rope can sustain before catastrophic failure. I just don't see people taking big number of true whippers on gear when climbing, unless their a sponsored climber like TC on a project like the Dawn Wall.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Andy,
don't worry about the number of falls. If you take even one 1.7 factor fall in your life it would be rare.

I don't think there is an answer. I use singles, doubles and twins depending on the situation. I would suggest that if you can you climb with a few people that use doubles and twins and see how you get along.

On the whole, doubles will be slower on longer routes and you can't use a grigri to belay or a microtrax to simul-climb. But when the storm hits, and you have 20 pitches to rap, you will wish you had those doubles.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Of course it depends on the type of fall, but practically speaking you don't have to worry about repeatedly falling on half ropes. That said, they aren't meant for sustained redpointing if that's what you are contemplating.

Half ropes can be useful in areas with mostly vertical cracks, but not as useful as they are for face-climbing on wandering routes. And for pure vertical crack-climbing as in Indian Creek, having to jam around two ropes is just an extra hassle.

Half ropes have a host of advantages when it comes to protecting routes (but you have to know what to do), both for the leader and the second, provide the most security in areas subject to rockfall and for rappelling.

As you say, they are heavier, a difference you might notice on very long leads. And handling can be trickier, although it isn't nearly as bad as some people seem to think.

I think one problem is that people in the US get good as climbers using single ropes, and then when they try half ropes they don't realize they have to learn new things, and then blame the results of their inexperience on the ropes.

I've climbed almost exclusively on half ropes for twenty years or so, on many different rock types. They may not best for everything (wall climbing comes to mind), but I think their versatility and extra safety margins make them overall the best solution if your climbing isn't highly specialized.

I've been amazed for years that the tag line approach has survived, considering how many drawbacks it has compared to half ropes and/or twins. Only in North America however; no one else seems to think it is a good solution to providing for full-length rappels.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

You're over thinking a few things and missing a few others.

First, the UIAA fall test is not intended to be taken literally. It can help predict the long term durability of a rope, but not exactly how many falls it can take before failure. If you fall a lot, you may need to replace doubles more often than a single, but you aren't going to break them. Just make sure you aren't climbing on a core shot rope and that you protect sharp edges, same things you do with a single.

You are right about not having to use as many long slings with, which can make falls a bit shorter, but you are forgetting a few things about doubles:

They stretch more than singles. This is good because it puts less force on your gear but it also means longer falls. Moreover, you place less gear per rope in a double rope system, which often puts more slack in the system. This is good as there is less rope drag but again, it can mean longer falls.

One way around the long falls is to buy ropes that are rated as both twins and doubles. That way you can just clip both ropes when you're climbing hard. Doesn't add too much impact force to the system but keeps the falls a bit shorter. It should be noted that once you clip both ropes through the same biner, you must continue to do so for the rest of the pitch.

In terms of the belay, it doesn't add any trouble and I find it actually makes things easier, as you have two ropes to use for building an anchor, making yourself safe, etc. This is more noticeable when swapping leads than it is when leading in blocks, but either way I don't think you'll have a problem at the belay. Just do everything as you would with a single.

My recommendation would be to go buy an 8.1-8.5 and use it alongside your 10.2. That way, if you hate it, you can just use it as a tag line or sell it.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

I completely agree that doubles add all kinds of cool capabilities, but to me they are rarely worth the trouble.

I climbed almost exclusively on doubles (largely in the Gunks, but plenty elsewhere) for five years or so. As time has gone on, though, I've mostly drifted away from it because of the hassles that crop up. I've found that I can solve the majority of the rope drag issues with singles by really being strategic with slinging and (where possible) choosing the placement that offers the least drag. With 360 feet of rope lying around, the doubles just really like to find ways of causing trouble, and I've found it to be a very rare (but always memorable!) occurrence (usually involving a razor sharp edge that I'm traversing across) that I'm saying "gee, I really wish I had my doubles here!" I'd say that happens about once every 18 months, and doesn't make up for the "dealing" that goes along with doubles on a pretty much daily basis.

Totally different story on big alpine routes where having the bail capability is really great.

Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0
Ryan Williams wrote: It should be noted that once you clip both ropes through the same biner, you must continue to do so for the rest of the pitch.
What happens if you don't do this?
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Ryan Williams wrote:It should be noted that once you clip both ropes through the same biner, you must continue to do so for the rest of the pitch.
I'd actually understood the situation to be the OPPOSITE of this, namely that doubles can be twinned if you twin them for every piece, but that once you clip only one of the ropes into any one piece, you need to keep the ropes separate for the remainder of the pitch. My understanding of the "why" of this was that if the ropes aren't running through all the same pieces, if they are twinned again they will move through the top piece at different speeds, and the resultant difference in speeds can abrade the ropes.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Abrade the ropes: are folks out there falling a lot on doubles/halves?

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Bill Lawry wrote:Abrade the ropes: are folks out there falling a lot on doubles/halves?
The abrasion I'm talking about doesn't occur over repeated falls, it occurs over milliseconds during a single fall. Again, I'm not positive that I'm describing the scenario correctly, but that's how I learned it.
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

The thing w/ doubles, hating them only makes it worse. So I only use them for the alpine & ice. Cragging, not usually, because yes, you spend half your energy trying to figure out two systems rather than your sequence of balance.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

For multipitch where you are confident enough in your skills that you can swing every single pitch, I would suggest twins under 8.

You can treat twins like a single and for the effort, get two ropes up to rap from. I generally bring one locker and one non locker as my entire anchor kit, two cloves and I'm done. Of course for the proj, I'd need about 17 more lockers and at least a quadruple rack and 600ft of webbing to build something safe enough to put my weight on.

If a route wanders, run it out or use long slings. No need to get goofy.

If you need to block leads due to a large difference in the ability of each climber, I would suggest a single rope and a tag line. Also use the single and the tag line if you need to haul a small pack that is just bigger than what you'd climb with.

Maybe look at ropes that are primarily twins that will be OK for seldom double/half use.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Optimistic wrote: I'd actually understood the situation to be the OPPOSITE of this, namely that doubles can be twinned if you twin them for every piece, but that once you clip only one of the ropes into any one piece, you need to keep the ropes separate for the remainder of the pitch. My understanding of the "why" of this was that if the ropes aren't running through all the same pieces, if they are twinned again they will move through the top piece at different speeds, and the resultant difference in speeds can abrade the ropes.
The concrete rule is that you should either climb the entire pitch clipping both ropes through the same piece, or climb the entire pitch WITHOUT EVER clipping both ropes through the same piece. The easiest way to do this is to always clip one rope, and then if you want to have both ropes clipped to a single piece, just add an extra biner/draw to that piece for the second rope.

Kedron Silsbee wrote:What happens if you don't do this?
The problem with mixing it up on one pitch is, as Optimistic pointed out, rope abrasion. Regardless of what order you do it, if you mix between both ropes in a biner and just one rope in a binder, the ropes will not run through the biner(s) at the same speed. When this happens (nylon on nylon) it can melt the ropes.

We could sit and talk all day about different scenarios in which this is more likely to happen and scenarios in which it is less likely to happen, but as I said above, the easiest way to avoid it is to just use separate biner if you ever want to clip both ropes to the same piece.

Bill Lawry wrote:Abrade the ropes: are folks out there falling a lot on doubles/halves?
Yes, folks are out there falling on doubles. Otherwise, what would be the point of using ropes? ;-)
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

I use 7.8 twin/half rated ropes when I´m travelling since with them I can do anything (well except pull 5.13 but that´s not the ropes), extensive local trad climbing it would be 8.5´s just because they are more robust. As the others have said single rope trad is o.k until the raps come, then it sucks hugely!

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

- dealing with doubles is a bit more work, especially managing the ropes at belays

- this can be overcome with much practice ... with folks who arent used to it, it becomes a rope snafu gongshow especially on block leading where the rope should be reflaked every time

- in squamish you dont need doubles ... almost no one uses em for general use or even most multis

- in squamish youll have problems finding belayers who are skilled at half rope belaying ... unless its those visiting brit climbers and even they dont use em here when theyve been here long enough

- out here you generally take a thinner main lead line and a tag line ... the advantage is that you can use the tag line to haul a light pack, on harder more vertical pitches here this can mean the difference between the second having a good time or absolutely struggling seconding a climb at their limit

- if you are worried about the rope getting stuck use a half rope as a tag line

- if you are going to take repeated whippers ... get a single rope ... itll be more durable .. not to mention itll be cheaper overall and you can use for for more things such as hard sport redpoints

- its a myth that half ropes have less impact force ... this was tested by Mr. Ewing at sterling .... put them to the 80kg single rope test and they had as much impact force generally ..., however the thinner half ropes may SLIP more in many belay devices

willgadd.com/single-and-hal…

- as to clipping as twins and doubles in the same pitch ...


Hello (deleted),

you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland,

(deleted)

(deleted) Kind regards
(deleted)
Productmanager Climbing Equipment
Mammut Sports Group AG, Birren 5, CH-5703 Seon
Tel. +41 62 769 81 32, Fax +41 62 769 82 47, mammut.ch


from the Odyssey ... the amazing hazel findlay flashing E7 ... she splits the ropes then joins em back together at the last pin



james pearson on e8/9 ... he joins the ropes then splits em ... and even takes a fall latter ... doesnt die quite yet



;)
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

Short answer:

At first, yes, they will make you suck more because you are new to them and will probably create all manner of clusterfucks. You will probably be tempted to blame the ropes.

Once you get used to them, no they will not make you worse. In fact assuming you or your partner have access to a single they will almost by definition make you better as you will have more options when deciding how to approach a given climb. At that point it's just horses for courses.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

That's very interesting bearbreeder... My "variable speed abrasion" concept (obviously not original with me, it's what I was taught) has been out there a long time, though...do you know if any of this has been formally tested?

The "re-joining" maneuver would be handy at times, particularly when close to a ledge: I'll typically twin the first few pieces on a pitch because doubles are so stretchy, and obviously the same thing would be nice to do if you encountered a ledge mid-pitch.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Optimistic wrote:That's very interesting bearbreeder... My "variable speed abrasion" concept (obviously not original with me, it's what I was taught) has been out there a long time, though...do you know if any of this has been formally tested? The "re-joining" maneuver would be handy at times, particularly when close to a ledge: I'll typically twin the first few pieces on a pitch because doubles are so stretchy, and obviously the same thing would be nice to do if you encountered a ledge mid-pitch.
read more about it as well as senseless arguments here

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

as to "testing" ... its been "tested" in real life

heres james pearson on his strawberry onsight attempt ... he blows it and takes a huge whipper

you can see the double ropes split then rejoined right before the whipper



personally if the gear is bomber, i sometimes clip the first piece or two with both strands as the gripiping force for the belayer holding both strands solidly (rather than having a finger between the strands, mostly gripping one of em) is significant ...

bergundsteigen

it also reduces the stretch on starting ledges off the belay ....of course it puts a bit more force on the gear

;)
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
bearbreeder wrote: read more about it as well as senseless arguments here rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo… as to "testing" ... its been "tested" in real life
I'm scared to go on rc.com...so much senselessness...

I was hoping for a slightly more systematic testing regime than one big whipper?!

:)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Optimistic wrote: I'm scared to go on rc.com...so much senselessness... I was hoping for a slightly more systematic testing regime than one big whipper?! :)
lol ... ill post up the most relevant response for ya


Hi Charles,

Sorry for the late response to your question. I was away on a short climbing vacation with my family.

So then…

Indeed there has been lots of discussion on this topic and a pretty wide range of thoughts and opinions. Unfortunately the UIAA (the international mountaineering standards writing organization) does not clarify this point very well in the standard document. The standard, UIAA 101 (EN 892) merely states that a rope certified as half is suitable for use in pairs and clipped separately while a rope certified as twin is suitable for use in pairs and must be clipped together into the same carabiner as though they were a single rope. Currently there is no mention of how the ropes should be treated when it has a dual certification.

My personal opinion, as rope engineer and a climber, is that one should choose one technique before starting each pitch and stick with it to the end. Changing the technique back and forth mid pitch would likely create situations where the ropes have the possibility running unevenly (speeds) or even in opposite directions in the event of a fall. This could cause, as you stated, the potential for rope on rope friction, which we know can cause damage to the nylon. While I’ve never heard of a rope failure from such a scenario I see it as one possibility that can easily be avoided by sticking with one technique per pitch. That said, in 35+ years of climbing, and a huge amount of that time with half ropes and twin ropes, I’m certain I have mixed the techniques mid pitch many times without incident. I believe the point I’m trying make here, is to go with the best practices first but when that’s not possible you have to go with what works.

I know this does not clarify the issue much beyond your previous understanding but I hope it helps you make wise choices while you climb. If I can be of any further help feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

Jim

Jim Ewing
Product Engineer
Sterling Rope Company, Inc.


he also added

I’ve been trying to imagine some sort of test set up for this issue in years past but it never seems to become a very high priority, unfortunately. If you have some ideas feel free to share them and I’ll try to determine if it is possible to set up a test.


so in short ... mammut says its OK ... and mr ewing sterling says while he doesnt recommended it generally hes done it himself and has never heard of a rope failure from it ...

one thing to note is that even in "normal" half rope climbing folks sometimes mix up the strands and take whippers ... IMO this is even worse as the ropes are now at right angles crossed over each other ... of course its something that one shouldnt do, but it happens ...

also on a straight up crack, the ropes can rub against each other

photo from UKClimbing

the solution is simple ... take 10 WHIPPAHs and report back ... if yr alive we know its good

;)
AndySkol · · Seattle, WA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

Wonderful feedback so far, thanks to all.

I think you guys are right about overthinking the UIAA rating because it’s hard to take such a hard fall, especially on a half rope because if you fall on the belay you’re on two ropes, and because I’m not the type of guy to take a bunch of whippers anyway. Also, I don’t really “work” routes - there are plenty at my grade that at worst I might need to hang on but still provide fun and challenge, and I prefer onsight type climbing, or showing a route I’ve climbed before to a new partner (especially during recovery). That said, I’m still reluctant to buy a pair of 7.3-8.1mm half ropes that only do 5-7 55kg falls, though their weight is really attractive. Maybe this is still plenty of margin given how harsh the UIAA test is but it makes me nervous that they would likely hold only 1 or 2 single rope test falls, harsh as they are.

I agree that I should climb with someone else who has doubles, but I don’t know anyone who does in my area, though I’m sure they are out there. I don’t know a lot of trad leaders here.

Interesting points about fall distance, Ryan (Williams). Somehow extra fall distance due to long static slings bothers me more than rope stretch, which is absorbing energy. On that topic, I hear that they stretch more, which makes sense since they are skinnier, but it seems not a whole lot - in the half rope test the Beal Cobra II 8.6 stretches 35% on first fall, where the 9.1mm Joker stretches 32%. When used as a single, the Joker is 34%. Beal ropes are on the stretchier end though and this may vary across manufacturers. However, this consistency may have correlation with the single rope impact force tests on half ropes that bearbreeder mentioned.

Ryan (Williams), why clip together when climbing hard, only to keep the falls shorter? but if you blow the clip and you’re clipping high (ok, probably a bad idea, but maybe I’m over my head in both senses) then the fall might be longer.

Interesting discussion on clipping as twins and doubles within a pitch, but it has been discussed a lot. I think even if the ropes burn each other they probably won’t burn through and yer probably not gonna die, but you might be buying new rope(s). Safe thing to do is stick with one technique in a pitch or use two biners on the piece, but as Jim says if you’re stuck do what you gotta do.

Good points on twins usable as halfs, nicelegs. That would keep things simpler most of the time and still give options. With recent partners I usually need to lead all the pitches - maybe I should go looking for some new ones :) The 7.3 Gully is rated as half and twin and still has a very low impact force as a twin (7.9kN). They are super light at 36g/m, only downsides are they are only rated for 6-7 half rope falls (may not be an issue) and I might tear up the sheath quickly, though surprisingly it is 45%. They might also be extra tangly due to being so thin.

Great post, bearbreeder. Squamish is where I climb the most and have the most aspirations, so that feedback is very useful. It seems like even in squamish it would be an advantage to use shorter (or no) slings, and be able to protect traverses better, etc. Maybe I’m not climbing hard enough, but most of what I’m doing now isn’t exactly straight up, though it’s not all over the place either. And I am often not confident enough (weather, ability) to only bring the single rope.

Great point on the hauling, too - I’ve never done it but I plan to be pushing my second more so that may be a major deal. On popular or long climbs I’d rather not take the extra time to haul, but that decision could be made on the day. What tag line do you use? How much does it suck to haul a 20-30L bag with a skinny half rope?

I remember you use half ropes some places, bearbreeder - where do they make sense for you and what is the difference vs Squamish multipitch stuff?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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