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Edelrid MegaJul Belay Device

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Thank you for the very comprehensive response.

rgold wrote: And finally there is the problem that no devices other than the Grigri will work at all in a factor-2 fall unless the belayer does something special that many people do not do and may not even know about.
Could you elaborate on what "something special" is?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Brian wrote: Is the use of a single 9mm rope a realistic test? Who uses a single 9mm rope to climb? I know single ropes are getting thinner but that is extreme. How about testing with a single 10mm rope. That would be a lot more real-life. Also are we talking about unusually big fall factors? I have held >200 lb climbers on 15 foot falls and the device locked up automatically with no supplemental braking required by my brake hand.
I ran that series of tests with a 9mm single strand because its the largest single-rated rope I have which can be used in the Smart I use, I don´t posses a 9.5mm which is it´s maximum. The thinnest single-rated rope is 8.6mm if I remember rightly and 9.1´s are in fairly common use.
These tests originated from work on the gripping ability of two ropes when either one strand or both are loaded as releated to our gripping ability on a single strand and for that I used 7.8, 8,5 and 9mm ropes. As the Smart exhibits this interesting and suprising characteristic the MegaJul and BRD were included to see if this a feature of all of this type. I bought the Smart specifically for use with two 7,8´s and that is my interest, for sport climbing with a 10mm ropes I use a Grigri and in that scenario any belay device will do.
The handling with my 10mm cragging ropes through the MegaJul is so appalling I can´t imagine ever wanting to use it but I´ll see if I can find the time to do at least some tests.
The graphs above are extremely laborious to produce as they are the results of 165 individual pulls, 165 changes of weight, 165 adjustments of the rope and 3 rope conditionings, then a load of head scratching to extract the data, average the 3 pulls and produce the results.
Pulling two strands (which is next up) is even worse as the test weight has to be split onto the two ropes.

Unusual events are what kill climbers so the industry works on them for safety purposes, otherwise we could make all the rest of the gear weak as shit to cover usual use and let the ones who take rare big falls die. your normal experience may not be the same as an extreme alpinist, big waller or people putting up run-out routes on granite domes.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
rgold wrote:One thing those numbers suggest is that you cannot count on the MegaJul as a locking rappel device for a single strand rappel on a 9mm rope, especially near the end of a rappel with little rope weight on it, because with zero or near zero grip strength (i.e. you've let go of the rope), the thing starts to slip at about 70 kgf = 154 lbf. The Smart would be even worse, with an untended slip threshold of about 40 kgf = 88 lbf. Jim pointed out to me in another thread that the instructions for the Alpine Up warn not to use it in "autolocking mode" for single-strand rappels; I'm beginning to see why that is.
That´s probably what disappointed or annoyed me most with the Smart, the locking ability rapping on 7.8´s wasn´t enough to hold me so I had the inconvenience of holding the locking open but none of the benefits, top of the rap I´d move down like a snail if I didn´t (awkwardly) hold the thing open and down the bottom I´d be gripping the ropes like death as per usual. And the thing twisted the ropes. In the end I carried a conventional plate for the raps and then ditched the Smart altogether and enjoyed the rest of my holiday.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
NC Rock Climber wrote: Could you elaborate on what "something special" is?
I was speaking about holding factor-2 falls with just about any device other than a gri-gri. I think that people are becoming increasingly aware that if they brake in the usual fashion with their brake hand low, by the hip, that in a factor 2 fall there will be almost no involvement of the belay device, in the sense that the rope bends around the device that are responsible for braking will not be present. You don't stand a chance in hell of holding the high-impact of a factor 2 fall with your brake hand that low.

(Note: some people claim the fall will pull the belay device low enough to create adequate braking action, even with the brake hand low. I don't believe it.)

What you have to do to brake a factor 2 fall is to have the brake hand up by your chest. What I do is to belay palm up until the leader has got in a good piece or two, so that my brake hand is naturally in a good position for chest-level braking. Palm down would be very awkward and there'd be a risk of having the rope torn out of the brake hand. I've practiced this enough to feel confident that I'll react correctly, a supposition that has, I'm sorry to say, been successfully tested in real-life circumstances.

As an aside, one of the reasons I like the Alpine Up is that I can---or at least I thought I could---belay palm-up all the time, which in addition to being optimal for factor-2 falls is also better for double-rope handling. Now I'm not so sure about this...
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Ha! Don´t want a MegaJul then, the instructions specifically exclude palm-up (unless you´ve some wierd hands), gotta have the braking hand thumb pointing toward the device. Says you´ll have a fatal accident:-)

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

In any case, the Alpine Smart and MegaJul, whatever their good points, are just plain inferior to the Alpine Up when it comes to half-rope handling, and since I use half ropes almost all the time, the Smart and Jul, and anything else that ties up the brake hand the way they do, are never going to be the device of choice for me.

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
reboot wrote:...The question should really be: would this device be better in catching falls than a tuber style device in circumstances that are likely to cause accidents (or an even more difficult question to answer, does it reduce accidents in general)? ...
Totally agree with this. I surmise that an assisted locking device is more likely to reduce accidents than a tuber-style device, especially in common accidents, but even in extreme cases like a factor 2 fall because even a little bit of resistance is better.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I'm sure it "works fine," just not as well as the Alpine Up. Look, there's a handle on the Smart and Jul because, in at least some circumstances, pumping slack to the leader requires the device be levered away from the belayer's body to keep the device from grabbing. With half ropes and the fairly common need to take one in while paying one out, tying up the brake hand on that handle means the other hand has to be pumping one strand and switching over and around to take in the other strand. This is at the very best awkward, and is prone to leave more slack in the leader's ropes, resulting, in some cases, in an elimination of one of the advantages of half rope technique.

When you have only one rope to manage, fine, but with two ropes heading through the device in opposite directions, the Alpine Up, which doesn't restrict what the belayer can do with their hands, is simply a better solution.

I sure do wish I know what the force curves for it look like though...

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
rgold wrote:I'm sure it "works fine," just not as well as the Alpine Up. Look, there's a handle on the Smart and Jul because, in at least some circumstances, pumping slack to the leader requires the device be levered away from the belayer's body to keep the device from grabbing. With half ropes and the fairly common need to take one in while paying one out, tying up the brake hand on that handle means the other hand has to be pumping one strand and switching over and around to take in the other strand. This is at the very best awkward, and is prone to leave more slack in the leader's ropes, resulting, in some cases, in an elimination of one of the advantages of half rope technique. When you have only one rope to manage, fine, but with two ropes heading through the device in opposite directions, the Alpine Up, which doesn't restrict what the belayer can do with their hands, is simply a better solution. I sure do wish I know what the force curves for it look like though...
The Alpine-Up has its own set of trade-offs that negate the advantages you mentioned. In an alpine environment a Reverso and ATC-G are still superior to the Smart, MegaJul, and Alpine-Up. What makes the MegaJul and Smart attractive is that they work like a tuber, inversely what makes the Alpine-Up attractive is its complicated order of operations. Users of MegaJul's and Smarts can pick them up an become efficient in minutes while the Alpine-Up takes significant use to become familiar.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Ray Pinpillage wrote: The Alpine-Up has its own set of trade-offs that negate the advantages you mentioned. In an alpine environment a Reverso and ATC-G are still superior to the Smart, MegaJul, and Alpine-Up. What makes the MegaJul and Smart attractive is that they work like a tuber, inversely what makes the Alpine-Up attractive is its complicated order of operations. Users of MegaJul's and Smarts can pick them up an become efficient in minutes while the Alpine-Up takes significant use to become familiar.
I guess everyone is different Ray. Threading the Up is no different than threading a tuber, and without the handle the belay motions are much more natural than the Smart and Jul. I've given an Up to people, shown them how to instantly unlock it if they accidentally lock it up, and had them belay successfully with it immediately.

The trade-offs are weight, size, and price, and although these may be serious considerations, none of them even affect, much less "negate the advantages." There may be a real competition for single rope and twin rope belaying, but for half rope belaying the UP is just a better mousetrap.

I think one of the problems with the UP is that it looks complicated. But it isn't fundamentally different from a tube.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
rgold wrote: I guess everyone is different Ray. Threading the Up is no different than threading a tuber, and without the handle the belay motions are much more natural than the Smart and Jul. I've given an Up to people, shown them how to instantly unlock it if they accidentally lock it up, and had them belay successfully with it immediately. The trade-offs are weight, size, and price, and although these may be serious considerations, none of them even affect, much less "negate the advantages." There may be a real competition for single rope and twin rope belaying, but for half rope belaying the UP is just a better mousetrap. I think one of the problems with the UP is that it looks complicated. But it isn't fundamentally different from a tube.
I wasn´t so keen on the two-rope feeding aspect of the Smart Alpine but a couple of rubber bands sorted that out in short order. it actually becomes a nice, well mannered device then. You can´t do this on the MJ though.
There´s a couple of proper fixes for both devices but they are effectively blocked by a patent held by Zedel, the CT solution is a work around the patent.

For the 10mm rope fans:-
A quick and dirty test with the hand force steps increased from 2kg to 5kg and only one pull per force not 3 so the curves aren´t as accurate as I´d normally like.
The max hand force is increased to 25kg because that is a reasonable value for a belayer to hold on a 10mm rope, that´s why on the 9mm it was only 22kg.
Hand Force/Braking Force 10mm rope.

The BRD continues to impress, even outperforming the ATC XP this time. It looks like belay devices are a bit like women, the lightweight, racily styled ones get off to a good start but the ones with 30 years experience still perform better at the end of the day.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

i never had any real problems belaying or rapping with my alpine smart on mammut 8mm halves

once the climber clips high a simply feed a bit of slack on the lower clipped roped then bring in the higher clipped rope which is the critical one

for rapping i found it little different from the version of the smart for thicker ropes, requiring very little effort to keep control ... but then im very used to the smart by now

a few things worth mentioning

- the slippage in the smart is a good thing for trad climbing IMO ... especially if you are on smaller gear

- the particular biner makes a decent difference in the braking and feeding of the alpine smart IME ... a flatter profile biner like a rocklock gives is stickier than a rounder one like a william/boa

- the alpine smart is a biatch to release in autoblock ... its probably one of the hardest devices to do so once loaded requiring a thin dyneema sling or cord ... and you cant do the biner pump which complicates self rescue scenarios

- the alpine smart can be used in a "normal" rapping mode ... but you cant bump it up like an ATC ... line a biner brake it only goes one way ... down

- the smoothness in autoblock means the alpine smart makes a great emergency ascender, especially on double strand raps should you screw up your rap

- it is critical with the smart that the brake hand come down onto the rope and not keep hold of the handle when a fall occurs .... folks have been dropped by holding onto the handle with minimal grip on the rope, and levering up the handle slightly

one thing id like to know about these assisted locking devices is how much the greater initial braking has on the fall itself ... with a grigri your body basically gets pulled up right away (im sure there is some slippage in large falls, but essentially you just get pulled up) ... with an ATC/munter theres an inertial phase where your hand moves up first, as anyone who has had their hand sucked upwards can attest to

with these assisted locking devices does the higher initial braking force of the fall have any effect on holding the fall afterwards ... does it make it less likely to lose control vs a munter/ATC where the peak force occurs since there is no/not as much moving hand "inertial phase" ... or does it make it more likely to lose control

A Simulation of Climbing and Rescue Belays

basically i think someone needs to go out an catch a whole bunch of UIAA factor 1,77 falls on a high speed camera .... which im sure mammut and edelrid have already done

perhaps we should ask em ...

;)

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

There a bit shy about actually publishing any real results for their belay devices, something most manufacturers are guilty of.
Us Smart users will just have to accept;-
By “braking force support” we mean that in a fall the device exerts most of the braking action itself, virtually locking the device.
The shape and geometry of the Smart Alpine provides dynamic braking of the rope in order to minimize impact on the fallen climber and the equipment, so the belayer only needs to apply a small amount of force to lock the rope completely in the belay device.
It is true that the Smart Alpine is designed to exert an enormous braking effect on the rope, virtually locking it.....


Or not.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

jim,

what biner did you use to test the alpine smart?

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

An old-school Petzl Attache, climbing I use the Climbing Technology one but I´m not going to waste that testing! They´re virtually identical anyway just the cT one has a clip for the belay loop to stop rotating.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

might be interesting to try it with the BD rocklock if you have one

i find a rocklock is more sticky on thinner ropes .... though its harder to feed and rappel on with thicker ropes

as you can see the gap is significant and noticeable on belay/rap

bd rocklock, thin rope alpine smart version

petzl attache, thin rope alpine smart version

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
rgold wrote: I think one of the problems with the UP is that it looks complicated. But it isn't fundamentally different from a tube.
The Alpine-Up has moving parts and additional holes for preventing the locking features. It may work using the same theory as a tube but the order of operation is still different. I used one and I thought it was not intuitive and required a lot of use to become second nature the way a Smart or MegaJul does almost instantly. I think discounting the Alpine-Up's complexity shows a great deal of bias or lack of use in anything but casual environments.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
bearbreeder wrote:might be interesting to try it with the BD rocklock if you have one i find a rocklock gives better braking on thinner ropes .... though its harder to feed and rappel on with thicker ropes as you can see the gap is significant and noticeable on belay/rap
Caribiner should be slid forward, not back.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Ray Pinpillage wrote: Caribiner should be slid forward, not back.
that was merely to show the gap clearly

the same gap exists anyway you move the biner

;)
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Jim Titt wrote: The BRD continues to impress, even outperforming the ATC XP this time.
I have a BRD but have relegated it to top-rope belaying in the gym. I find it to be too "grabby" for belaying the leader. You have to pump slack into it just right---if the pumping hand wanders off the vertical line even a little, the thing locks up.

But it supplies noticeably more friction for everything.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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