BETTER, SAFER, FASTER TRAD CLIMBING?

I'm starting a new program with the Colorado Mountain School to help people become better, faster, safer trad climbers. We'll be in Eldorado Canyon and Boulder Canyon mostly, and I'll be ascending a rope ahead of the climbing team to give them feedback in real time. I'll also be shooting photos of the climbing team for their memories.

Letting everyone know that I'll be working with all different grades of leaders, so we may be on any grade of a climb, but we're not a commercial photo shoot. So if you see us out there, we'll do our best to stay out of your way and not hog the great climbs.

See more on the new trad climbing program here. coloradomountainschool.com/…

Not all nuts are placed equal...

It's pretty rare that I see instructors teach trad climbing on legit lead. Most lead climbing classes, trad or sport, are done on mock lead. I always disagreed with that practice beyond one or two mock leads to get a few things down. As the Navy SWCCs say, train in what you work in. Good to know you're going all the way.

Yeah, something about using a top rope while leading that's a bit like learning to drive while sitting in the back seat with a fake steering wheel.

20 kN wrote:It's pretty rare that I see instructors teach trad climbing on legit lead. Most lead climbing classes, trad or sport, are done on mock lead. I always disagreed with that practice beyond one or two mock leads to get a few things down. As the Navy SWCCs say, train in what you work in. Good to know you're going all the way.

I've found the opposite but I spend an unusual amount of time hiring guides. I think the problem is the guides have to spend enough time to evaluate your ability and knowledge. Even if a client has both the insurance company's are like NO,

Kirby1013 wrote: I've found the opposite but I spend an unusual amount of time hiring guides. I think the problem is the guides have to spend enough time to evaluate your ability and knowledge. Even if a client has both the insurance company's are like NO,

I was referring more to lead climbing classes rather than guided climbs or the sort.

When I took a lead course, the guide set up a static line next to the route, ascending next to us. He could look at placements if we weren't sure about it, and if we freaked out we could clip into him directly. It was pretty neat.

This course sounds great.

kaptainkayak wrote:When I took a lead course, the guide set up a static line next to the route, ascending next to us.

When I took my first lead course, the guide told me I needed a partner to follow and belay me. Then the guide went solo alongside.

Ken

Kirby1013 wrote:I think the problem is the guides have to spend enough time to evaluate your ability and knowledge.

True -- thought with some guides the assessment can be pretty fast. Another flatlander I know was very experienced climbing rock and water ice in the northeath US mountains. Went to Chamonix with a less experienced partner who insisted on hiring a guide for five days.

So they met the guide, took the lift up, started some slpine mixed route. After a couple hours, the guide said, "You climb, I'll watch." So for the next 4.5 days my friend did all the leading and the guide climbed solo alongside. He thought it was an amazingly great trip.

Another time I hired a guide at Chamonix because I wanted to learn how navigation worked on alpine rock routes. We had done mountaineering a cuople of times before, but never climbing. We went to the Aiguilles Rouges, and first he led all the pitches (and messed up the navigation a couple of times, so it was very educational for me exactly what I was looking to learn).

For our second route, he said "Let's do some simul-climbing, since lots of Americans don't really understand how that should work." He said the stronger climber should go second on simul. So I went first. After a couple of pitches the climbing got harder. He said we need to switch to belayed climbing -- and I should lead. Then we got to the hardest pitch on the route (higher number than I'd ever led on multi-pitch before) and he said, "You're doing fine, keep leading."
So I did.

Different kind of learning about leading.

Ken

20 kN wrote: I was referring more to lead climbing classes rather than guided climbs or the sort.

That's what I'm talking about!

This reminds me of Dude where's my car?.. What does mine say? "sweet" what does mine say? "dude"

Kenr.. That trip sounds awesome! It does make for a great day when the guide believes in your abilities more than you do. I've led a pitch or two before thinking well if the guide says its cool then I guess I'll get to the top!

Cool to hear such rad guiding stories. For a long time top guides have been using the fixed rope alongside the climber to teach leading. One of the things we'll be doing that's a bit different is working with already experienced leaders to increase efficiency and improve strategy. Seems like sport climbing strategy is well-known while trad climbing strategy is kind of this mysterious thing. One of the climbers I'm working with has been leading for years, but is too slow to pull of longer climbs.

So, given the same level of experience, what's the biggest difference between leaders who get it done quickly (and safely) and those who take a long time to lead a pitch and set up an anchor?

Topher asked: So, given the same level of experience, what's the biggest difference between leaders who get it done quickly (and safely) and those who take a long time to lead a pitch and set up an anchor?

Im sure there can be more than one reason and its relative. My experience says confidence in placing the gear and moving on; so confidence in your ability to assess stone and your gear placement. I have a friend who has been climbing for alot longer than myself, but swapping leads with him can be painful! He assesses each placement and the sling, etc two to three times before moving on. He also triple checks his anchors, each component three or four times before starting to setup for the belay. There is nothing wrong with his ways, he just isnt capable/willing to be a speedy leader because his "need" to not trust his initial placement, gear and ability and move on. Doubtful he is and not from a negative experience, because thats just his way I guess.

topher donahue wrote:So, given the same level of experience, what's the biggest difference between leaders who get it done quickly (and safely) and those who take a long time to lead a pitch and set up an anchor?

Topher, I think the answer is knowledge about how slow they are, and how fast others are. I've started to time climbers on climbs and use this to explain to them just how massive the time difference is. The other difference is opening peoples' minds to different ways of doing things. Many of us have developed one way of doing things and stick to that even if for the climb or pitch in question another approach would be faster. Many climbers won't even try other things. Another possibility is to get people to wear a go pro for a multi pitch route then ask them to construct a table of timings for every activity - re-racking, time between the leader reaching the belay and the second leaving the last stance, time rapping the rope compered with time getting ready to rap.... - some people can be shocked into action by the data, or just by watching the video.

This process led to Andy Kirkpatrick and I writing a book to try and show alternatives.

PS. go to multipitchclimbing.com and download the PDF version of the belay chapter - you are welcome to use any of the images if they are of use to show people what they might like to brush up on before the course if any of it is relevant to opening minds to different ways (the HTML images will be too low in resolution)

The Stoned Master wrote:Topher asked: So, given the same level of experience, what's the biggest difference between leaders who get it done quickly (and safely) and those who take a long time to lead a pitch and set up an anchor? Im sure there can be more than one reason and its relative. My experience says confidence in placing the gear and moving on; so confidence in your ability to assess stone and your gear placement. I have a friend who has been climbing for alot longer than myself, but swapping leads with him can be painful! He assesses each placement and the sling, etc two to three times before moving on. He also triple checks his anchors, each component three or four times before starting to setup for the belay. There is nothing wrong with his ways, he just isnt capable/willing to be a speedy leader because his "need" to not trust his initial placement, gear and ability and move on. Doubtful he is and not from a negative experience, because thats just his way I guess.

I agree with this. Confidence is key if the knowledge is there. Plus I would say rope work is next important. I guess that falls under experience though. It seems everytime we get hung up it's because we re flake the rope at every belay.

Disclaimer, I'm no expert but am the kind of leader that belongs in Topher's class.

topher donahue wrote: So, given the same level of experience, what's the biggest difference between leaders who get it done quickly (and safely) and those who take a long time to lead a pitch and set up an anchor?

In terms of climbing, seeing how to do things and executing without having to reset and try alternatives contributes to speed. I don't think there is any shortcut to this other than lots of climbing experience on lots of different rock types. It also helps to be climbing a grade or two or three below one's limit, so that you can just make a move a little harder but keep going rather than backing up and doing it just right.

On easy ground there is something to think about that will actually speed up the climbing pace: avoid as much as possible having both feet at the same level, i.e. focus on making each step a step up. Obviously, this is only going to work on easy ground, but if you haven't focused on it I think you'll be surprised at how it picks up the pace.

All that said, I think the biggest differences in speed come from the way gear is used. Someone who fiddles at every placement is going to take far longer than someone who gets the gear right on the first try. Here again, practice matters the most, but there are some things you can do off the rock for cam placements (nut placement has to be learned on the job). For example, an ordinary bench vise is very effective for learning to spot and make optimal cam placements. Grabbing and plugging the right cam every time will speed things up enormously.

Gear placement mentality varies according to whether or not the climber is at their limit. For pitches under the climbing limit, placing opportunistically, which is to say placing gear not necessarily near the most difficult parts, but rather where it is easy to place and remove gear, will enhance speed.

Gear changeover and rope management at belays can also waste a lot of time. Carrying and cleaning onto a single sling is the fastest way to do things, but lots of people like to rack on their harnesses. If the second stays organized, it is only slightly slower. While the leader is reracking, the second should be making sure the ropes are arranged for the belay.

I'm a fan of installed tethers for speeding up the process. As soon as the leader gets in something solid, he or she clips in with the tether and calls off belay. The second is anchored with the rope but also has their tether clipped. While the leader finishes building the belay, the second unclips with the rope and takes down the anchor, leaving only a good piece to be tethered to. They get on their shoes and put on the pack if one is carried. The test of this process is that the second should be ready to climb as soon as the leader says "on belay."

I always look at it as a race. If I am seconding. I want to be ready to climb and waiting for the instant the leader puts me on belay, usually with one piece of gear left on the anchor, or no gear if it's a decent ledge or the rope is completely out.

When I'm leading, I try to get off belay as fast as possible and have the rope up and on belay before the second is ready. If I can do both then I'm probably going to start getting cranky with my partner.

David Coley wrote: PS. go to multipitchclimbing.com and download the PDF version of the belay chapter - you are welcome to use any of the images if they are of use to show people what they might like to brush up on before the course if any of it is relevant to opening minds to different ways (the HTML images will be too low in resolution)

Thanks David! And good suggestions everyone. Thanks.

topher donahue wrote:I'm starting a new program with the Colorado Mountain School to help people become better, faster, safer trad climbers. We'll be in Eldorado Canyon and Boulder Canyon mostly, and I'll be ascending a rope ahead of the climbing team to give them feedback in real time. I'll also be shooting photos of the climbing team for their memories. Letting everyone know that I'll be working with all different grades of leaders, so we may be on any grade of a climb, but we're not a commercial photo shoot. So if you see us out there, we'll do our best to stay out of your way and not hog the great climbs. See more on the new trad climbing program here. coloradomountainschool.com/…

Very neat class idea!!

DannyUncanny wrote:I always look at it as a race. If I am seconding. I want to be ready to climb and waiting for the instant the leader puts me on belay, usually with one piece of gear left on the anchor, or no gear if it's a decent ledge or the rope is completely out. When I'm leading, I try to get off belay as fast as possible and have the rope up and on belay before the second is ready. If I can do both then I'm probably going to start getting cranky with my partner.

Me too.... I hate it when partner makes me keep belaying while they get the complete anchor "set up"....

I try to always be ready to remove the final piece and start climbing just as soon as the cord pulls up to me.

topher, if your class gets one more party to learn to haul ass, you will have my thanks.

Now that I'm helping advertise some guides class in CO I will say that I seriously doubt any class is going to help speed up slow climbers. It may teach them something for sure but in my experience slow climbers dont change, either they are super psyched to get on with the climb(and listen well) or they are bumbling idiots when left on their own at a belay(dont listen well). Like Guy said, anything to help speed certain people up is probably a good thing, certainly cant hurt.

Zappatista wrote:"Certain people", huh? It's so pleasant when the Dark Gods of Internet braggartry try to self-inflate and take potshots at a guy like Topher for promoting a legit business, it really proves how worthy the best among us are to wash Honnold's jockstrap. Because you're so fast at washing Honnold's ball-satchel, O Fast One. Topher, I respect your words and deeds and wish your business the best of luck. Guiding is a tough biz and any climber looking to benefit from your experience has a cool way to do so, I like the concept. Next up: Mobes assails Lynn Hill for providing master classes and excellent catering. Because, ya know, only the slow eat excellent catering.

more porn and self promotion, you can do better son

Kirby1013 wrote: That's what I'm talking about! This reminds me of Dude where's my car?.. What does mine say? "sweet" what does mine say? "dude" Kenr.. That trip sounds awesome! It does make for a great day when the guide believes in your abilities more than you do. I've led a pitch or two before thinking well if the guide says its cool then I guess I'll get to the top!

Well sounds like you live in a parallel universe then. Consider what is possibly the #1 guiding service out there in terms of guide quality: Yosemite Mountaineering School. They dont let anyone lead, not even on easy slab. It's company policy. Shit, even when you are jugging on a big wall you are supposed to be on belay on a redundant rope. Reminds me of jumping in the bouncy castle. It's about at the same level as that.