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Devil's Lake Helicopter?

Jay Knower · · Plymouth, NH; Lander, WY · Joined Jul 2001 · Points: 6,036
Doug Hemken wrote:I mean if enough people will tell me about specific incidences (time, place, duration, description of the helicopter), I will raise the issue with the DNR.
Doug, are you the DNR-whisperer? If so, could you tell them to open New Sandstone?
Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

I'm working on it. We've gotten to the Regional level, and I'm hopeful.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166

My thought is that we, as a climbing community, ought to maybe sit this one out. Getting in bed with the DNR to "manage the aesthetic impact" of a user-group might not want to be something that we want to condone. Climbers have a significant aesthetic impact on the park (chalk, noise, erosion, neon lycra, webbing across the trails, etc.) and it seems to me that arguing from those terms puts us in a difficult position if the DNR were to ever confront the community about those issues.

AKA "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

The safety argument, at least the climber-specific safety argument, also paints us into a corner. While the safety concern is to some degree valid; couching the argument in these terms essentially admits that climbing cannot be done safely in the legal presence of a helicopter. Again I am not sure this a great (or true for that matter) position for the climbing community to put itself in.

Just my two-cents.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

It's not the DNR's job to make climbing safe for us, but they do manage environmental impact, user conflict, and to a lesser extent, aesthetics. Climbers and the DNR trying to ignore each other is not a great management strategy, in my opinion. Among other things, that's why we don't currently have legal access to the New Sandstone.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Approaching the helicopter operator if this continues should absolutely be the first step. It would take a lot of work to even get the DNR involved.

Jay Knower · · Plymouth, NH; Lander, WY · Joined Jul 2001 · Points: 6,036
Doug Hemken wrote:I'm working on it. We've gotten to the Regional level, and I'm hopeful.
How are you going about it? What's the plan? Are you acting as an individual or on behalf of a group?

I agree with James. Don't pick a fight with a helicopter. Just be glad that you have relative peace and quiet 99.999% of the time.
Jay Knower · · Plymouth, NH; Lander, WY · Joined Jul 2001 · Points: 6,036
D.Buffum wrote: Jay, I think Doug was saying he's working on opening Old Sandstone. Maybe I misunderstood.
Old Sandstone is open, right? New's been closed for going on 20 years now, and it was closed on shaky ground.

My understanding is this: An "amateur naturalist" hiked up there and did not like the impact. So, the New was closed and the Old remained open so that a study could be conducted (not sure by whom) to determine the impact climbers have on an area. There was a time when you had to sign in to climb at the Old. The study ended at least 10 years ago and the New remains closed. Pretty fishy.
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Doug Hemken wrote:It's not the DNR's job to make climbing safe for us, but they do manage environmental impact, user conflict, and to a lesser extent, aesthetics. Climbers and the DNR trying to ignore each other is not a great management strategy, in my opinion. Among other things, that's why we don't currently have legal access to the New Sandstone.
I'm not suggesting we ignore the DNR, I am suggesting we ignore the helicopter...[edit to add]such that the DNR ignores us.
sonvclimbing · · bolder city · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 25

I do believe the helicopter has just as much right as you, being there. get over it.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
sonvclimbing wrote:I do believe the helicopter has just as much right as you, being there. get over it.
+1000. And the conceding tone about when talking about "tourist" and "pink little faces" makes you come off like a real jerk. I don't want to get into a war of words about this, but if a helicopter leagally flying around where you are climbing for (gasp!) 1:30 is some sort of safely issue for you and your partner, then you probably should not be climbing in the first place. If you want perfect conditions, stay in the gym.

I am sure that it was annoying, but it is a public and heavily used area. Learn to share, and if you want solitude get off the beaten track.
Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Jay, I've been working on the New.

Two guys on MP (Boots and me) annoyed about a new helicopter with a new and aggressive pilot is a long way from anything that anyone could act on. As I think I've suggested a couple of times, it will take quite a few annoyed people with some real documentation of the problem to even raise the issue.

You have a number of pieces of the story on the New correct: amateur herpatologist, both the New and the Old closed (the Old is close to a rattlesnake den area), Old reopened after a couple of years and the New left closed with promise of a comparison after a couple more years. I maintained the sign-in data at the Old, to show the total use and seasonal pattern, for about 2 years (3 seasons). That was 20 years ago. We had numerous meetings with the DNR over a period of several years, in the mid 90s, and we discussed statewide climbing management issues. Almost no one involved on either side of the table is still around and involved with Devils Lake.

I always love the irony when folks who aren't from around here (not you, Jay) and have no clue about the details of this pilot on these flights, tell me with utter confidence that they know best. They are correct about one thing: there is some noise around here that is best just ignored!

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

RPG?

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
jon jugenheimer wrote:RPG?
HA!
Burton Lindquist · · Madison, WI · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 4,215

Is it illegal to moon annoying helicopters buzzing to close to the cliff face?
Maybe if enough of us older climbers are in the same place and easily visible from the wind shield of the chopper (cliff top) we could give em a no doubt less then stellar show.

Bootz Ylectric · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 165
NC Rock Climber wrote: +1000. And the conceding tone about when talking about "tourist" and "pink little faces" makes you come off like a real jerk. I don't want to get into a war of words about this, but if a helicopter leagally flying around where you are climbing for (gasp!) 1:30 is some sort of safely issue for you and your partner, then you probably should not be climbing in the first place. If you want perfect conditions, stay in the gym. I am sure that it was annoying, but it is a public and heavily used area. Learn to share, and if you want solitude get off the beaten track.
It's not a war of words. You raise valid points. You're right I came off as a jerk. I was pissed. I had a beginner who needed constant coaching that I couldn't provide that day, and it frustrated me. So I didn't start this thread in the manner I should have. It was 1:30 per fly by, and it's multiple fly by's for hours at a time. If he gained even 80 feet of elevation he's not echoing off the bluff walls at deafening levels for the people climbing and hiking below and him and his passengers experience is virtually identical. So, he should learn to share as well. Be familiar with what takes place in the park below and understand the noise you create when you're that close to the bluffs.

I know Devil's Lake is not the place to go for solitude. I have my little spots to go at the lake that get me away from the crowds a little bit when I want that solitude and it usually works out for a relaxing day of climbing. And when I can get the heck out of the Midwest I definitely do so. Unfortunately for midwest cragging this is what I got.

And Jon Jugenheimer, I've been thinking about adding an RPG to my rack. Any recommendations?
Jay Knower · · Plymouth, NH; Lander, WY · Joined Jul 2001 · Points: 6,036
Boots Ylectric wrote: It's not a war of words. You raise valid points. You're right I came off as a jerk. I was pissed. I had a beginner who needed constant coaching that I couldn't provide that day, and it frustrated me. So I didn't start this thread in the manner I should have.
Level-headedness and agreement on a MP thread? What's this world coming to?

Bravo Boots!
Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

I would recommend the classic 1980's soviet/Rambo/Iron Eagle movie from '86 style...

RPG 7

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

I was thinking a simple rock would do, but I like your mooning idea, Burt (and today is the full moon)!

Damn, suddenly I really miss Bechler. He woulda sorted em.

Burton Lindquist · · Madison, WI · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 4,215

A cheap Laser pointer from Walgreens may do the trick....
or is that just an urban myth?

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Are these puppies illegal in the park???
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Midwest
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