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Belaying up a third on a tag line?

Original Post
Max Dillman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 15

Does anybody have any experience or expertise in using a static line in a top ropeing situation? Biggest question is that I already have my standard 60m climber and a tag line but I've only used the two together when it's just me and a partner. I'm planning on climbing the complete Exum ridge with three people and I was wondering if there's any real danger to belaying up the third using the tag line? Or should we just schlep two heavy ropes up there?

Thanks for your help!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Max Dillman wrote:Does anybody have any experience or expertise in using a static line in a top ropeing situation? Biggest question is that I already have my standard 60m climber and a tag line but I've only used the two together when it's just me and a partner. I'm planning on climbing the complete Exum ridge with three people and I was wondering if there's any real danger to belaying up the third using the tag line? Or should we just schlep two heavy ropes up there? Thanks for your help!
Typically, the correct solution to belaying a second and third at the same time would be with half ropes in which each rope is connected to each climber separately. I would not use a tagline to belay a third unless it was a half rope or single. What are you using for a tagline? You may want to try to borrow some halfs from a friend. That would be your best bet.
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Max Dillman wrote:Does anybody have any experience or expertise in using a static line in a top ropeing situation? Biggest question is that I already have my standard 60m climber and a tag line but I've only used the two together when it's just me and a partner. I'm planning on climbing the complete Exum ridge with three people and I was wondering if there's any real danger to belaying up the third using the tag line? Or should we just schlep two heavy ropes up there? Thanks for your help!
There is a danger: many scenarios develop in following where the second can take a real fall. One scenario is a traverse where the gear holds but the gear is spaced. Another is where they are climbing straight up but the route wanders above them, and when they fall the piece above them at the start of the traverse pulls. Another is that you can't see them and they're climbing faster than you think, slack develops, and they take a 20 footer on a static line.

All of these situations are commonly encountered and require a dynamic rope for the follower. A follower is "on toprope", but I wouldn't call it toproping.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

Static tag line??

There is no situation short of a dire emergency where this should be considered. How much is your mates life worth? Given that you can get super light and skinny half ropes. Why on earth would you use a tag line?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Y'know, you can climb the complete Exum easily the old-fashioned way with three people, two ordinary climbing ropes, and only one person moving at a time. Just sayin'...

Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

Why would you have a tag line anyway? Seems three people on that route each with a small pack could carry what they need for the day without hauling anything, assuming that's what the tag line is for. Also, when you get to the upper Exum, the need for ropes becomes pointless unless your not comfortable soloing low fifth class. Three ropes would be a pain in the ass. Take two dynamic 60m ropes. This will also make the rappel off Owen Spaulding much quicker. No need to over complicate things.

You could save yourself the effort ant bring one 60m and belay two at a time if you good and efficient at that grade. I brought double 60's and regretted it the whole time until the rappel at the end. Also the descent is hellish and loose as fuck. Less is more.

Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186

I've done it a bunch but never with a "tag line" per se. I've only used my 8mm bluewater canyon static line for what you're talking about. I'm not sure i would want anything skinnier.

What I do is tie into both but only clip my dynamic rope obviously and only clip the static line when it needs a directional. Have the second tie into the static line and only unclip the directionals as he climbs and have the third clean the route like normal. This way the climber on the static can wander a little more avoiding any pendulums. For bonus points belay both climbers simultaneously to hasten the process of climbing in a group of three. Keep a reasonably tight belay.

The Ex-Engineer · · UK · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 20

My first thought was exactly what Ryan suggested - take the 60 single and have both the seconds climb on it a few metres apart.

In fact, with highly competent party, I'd consider that as a lightweight option on alpine style rock routes even if I had a choice of ropes available.

If you're worried about needing to abseil a bit further than 30metres, which is understandable given some of the descriptions online of the descent, consider taking a fairly short length of cord rather than a full tag line. For example, 20metres of 5mm would easily extend the the distance you can go to 40metres.

[Caveat - I've not climbed the ridge.]

Keith Boone · · Henderson, NV · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 492

We climbed the Owen Spaulding as a party of three with a single 60M rope. The second climbed on a bite with 15 ft or so between them and the third . Some people call this a cows tail. It worked well since it was fairly easy terrain. There is some risk to the third falling and pulling the second off, but if the two climb together and don't let a lot of slack between them, it works well.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Don Ferris wrote:I've done it a bunch but never with a "tag line" per se. I've only used my 8mm bluewater canyon static line for what you're talking about. I'm not sure i would want anything skinnier. What I do is tie into both but only clip my dynamic rope obviously and only clip the static line when it needs a directional. Have the second tie into the static line and only unclip the directionals as he climbs and have the third clean the route like normal. This way the climber on the static can wander a little more avoiding any pendulums. For bonus points belay both climbers simultaneously to hasten the process of climbing in a group of three. Keep a reasonably tight belay.
Why not use a dynamic half rope? What are you gaining with the static? Has your second ever fallen on the static, and how did that go?
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

The longest pitch on the Lower Exum is less than 35m. The bomb setup is 70m twins; combine pitches 3/4 and 5/6, solo the upper, then one rap from Sargents to the ground. Roughly five pounds of rope and gear per person. You could reasonably do the entire Grand via Direct Exum with 10lb packs each.

Max Dillman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 15

Thanks for all of your posts. I have climbed the complete exum twice and the ideal setup would be to have two half ropes. I don't have access to or the funds to invest in a set of half or twins no matter how much i'd like to. I will most likely bring two regular sixties with me just cause that is the safest

My biggest question is;" what are the REAL dangers of using a static line in a top rope situation?"

I know that it isn't recommended but i want to know why. Static ropes were used to lead some pretty stiff climbs well into the seventies. I am wondering if anybody has any real evidence as to why a static rope is unsafe in a tope rope situation? Please use real evidence and refrain from hyperbolic statements

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Assuming there is little or no slack in the system I would think the risks are minimal. My concern would be pulling an anchor if the third fell with slack in the line. I'd do it if I had no other option. I only see needing the second line for the lower Exum and there is very little traversing to the pitches. If you belay the upper just tie in to the center of the dynamic rope.

Max Dillman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 15
Optimistic wrote: There is a danger: many scenarios develop in following where the second can take a real fall. One scenario is a traverse where the gear holds but the gear is spaced. Another is where they are climbing straight up but the route wanders above them, and when they fall the piece above them at the start of the traverse pulls. Another is that you can't see them and they're climbing faster than you think, slack develops, and they take a 20 footer on a static line. All of these situations are commonly encountered and require a dynamic rope for the follower. A follower is "on toprope", but I wouldn't call it toproping.
Thanks Optimistic. Thats what I thought.
Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186

Why not use a dynamic half rope? What are you gaining with the static? Has your second ever fallen on the static, and how did that go?

Optimistic, the reason I don't use a dynamic half rope is simple: I don't own one. I gain nothing with the static other than is weighs about half as much as my next lightest rope. Don't get me wrong, if the approach is cake and/or one of my partners has a reasonably light rope or I am unaware or suspicious of a routes traversing nature, I will opt for the dynamic every time. Do I think it's dangerous to belay a second up with a static rope? Not anymore than leading the same route. Ideal ? No.

As to if I have ever had a second fall while top belay with a static rope, yes, they have fallen, but it's always been quite un eventful. Kinda like a top rope fall in the gym.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

Optimistic answered the question of why NOT to use a static line.

But can someone please tell me why we keep having this conversation? Why use one? Why do so many trad climbers have "tag lines?" There is one good use for a static line and that is big walling (hauling and fixing). Anywhere else, and a static rope is just extra weight that can't used to lead and shouldn't be used to follow.

Want to lead on a single and need an extra rope to get down? Take along a skinny half rope. Otherwise, lead on doubles and be done with it!

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Ryan Williams wrote:Optimistic answered the question of why NOT to use a static line. But can someone please tell me why we keep having this conversation? Why use one? Why do so many trad climbers have "tag lines?" There is one good use for a static line and that is big walling (hauling and fixing). Anywhere else, and a static rope is just extra weight that can't used to lead and shouldn't be used to follow. Want to lead on a single and need an extra rope to get down? Take along a skinny half rope. Otherwise, lead on doubles and be done with it!
I think the other application would be the ability to do a 2-rope rap where one of the ropes is skinnier (and therefore lighter) than any dynamic rope, and is essentially being used as a pull cord for the line that you are actually rapping and leading on. Some people feel that the weight savings is worth the loss of the dynamic options, and some don't.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Optimistic wrote: I think the other application would be the ability to do a 2-rope rap where one of the ropes is skinnier (and therefore lighter) than any dynamic rope, and is essentially being used as a pull cord for the line that you are actually rapping and leading on. Some people feel that the weight savings is worth the loss of the dynamic options, and some don't.
Yea. I had a partner show up w/ a 10 mil single and a 6 mil static line in his pack once. Wanted to go up a 1000 foot route w/ them. I laughed and told him we were climbing on my 8.1 doubles.

On the way down, we got a rope stuck and had to lead 60-80 feet to get it back. If we had taken his static cord, I would have been leading 5.10 on a 6 mil static line. Awesome.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

A 6mm tag line does have the advantage if you want to haul a day pack while doing some long, hard free climbing, or if you need to get off a long single pitch (say IC). It is noticeably lighter than any double rope. Of course, it is thin & it can be really annoying if you have to rap. If you need any additional safety margin, use either a pair of doubles if you don't need to haul, or single+double if you do.

Skinny doubles are cool & all, but it is slightly more annoying to work with if you don't need the versatility.

For OP's situation, one should definitely bring 2 real ropes.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20
Ryan Williams wrote: Yea. I had a partner show up w/ a 10 mil single and a 6 mil static line in his pack once. Wanted to go up a 1000 foot route w/ them. I laughed and told him we were climbing on my 8.1 doubles. On the way down, we got a rope stuck and had to lead 60-80 feet to get it back. If we had taken his static cord, I would have been leading 5.10 on a 6 mil static line. Awesome.
You rig the raps to pull the heavier rope. I've always used a 7mm tag because leading and handling a single + tag has always been the fastest option for me. I never could manage to get doubles to work well when dealing with hanging belays and lots of technical pitches where the leads were at my limit...just don't want to deal with 2 lead ropes then.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Max, what diameter is the tag line?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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