Choosing a belay device and locking carabiner

Check out the Edelrid Mega Jul. It's a 1/3 the weight of an ATC Guide, made of steel (greater durability, and has an auto-locking function like a Petzl GriGri at 1/3 the $$$$ of the GriGri. The Edelrid Mega Jul is an awesome belay device. Partner the Mega Jul with the new BD Vapor magnetron locker. Sweet pair.

Mathias wrote:I ended up getting a GridLock screw gate carabiner.

Good choice

Kevin - I don't use a munter often, although it's always in my bag of tricks if I needed it. However, you can use a Munter on an Attache size belay biner easily, it doesn't require a RockLock size biner. I have also done plenty of ice climbing with the Attache and the size is fine for use with XL gloved hands.

OP - the Gridlock should work fine for you. Since you're new, you'll probably become quickly facile in putting it on the belay loop and it will never seem like a bother to you. It has a good rope bearing radius with smooth edges that wear well.

Scott McMahon wrote: Considering this is his FIRST belay device, a gri-gri is a wee bit advanced. Learning basic belaying skills before buying an intricate device might keep from another "climber decked at xxx gym" thread. And the gridlock is "ok". I was never worried about cross loading I just thought it would be easier having a biner that didn't flip, but I spend just as much time getting it on my harness swapping out as I did flipping my belay biner. Plus it only goes to the gym or single pitch crag. I wouldn't use it multi-pitch or in the mountains so it's usage for me is limited.

How on earth is a grigri too intricate or advanced?

Kevin Pula wrote:Also I'd love to see the scenario In a gym where a fall creates enough force to exceed a cross loaded biner's limits.

I agree with you, but for a while my gym was requiring either a gridlock type biner, or TWO locking biners with gates opposed. The manager claimed it had something to do with preventing injuries from cross loading. I'm a kind of hefty dude, so if anyone was going to generate sufficient forces to do this, it's me, and I spent a solid 15 minutes trying to imagine ways that I could hurt myself in that gym, by crossloading.

I ended up buying gridlocks for the whole fmaily, because using two opposed lockers was a major PITA. Then the policy got changed. Still, the gridlock is kind of useful in the gym, IMO. A cross loaded biner is not much of a safety issue, but it does tend to get caught on holds and generaly be inconvenient.

I've got a Magnetron GridLock to pair with my ATC-Guide, Smart Alpine, and Figure-8 (with a few RockLock twists and screws to facilitate belaying-from-above). I haven't belayed with the Figure-8 yet (but I love it for the smooth rappel).

I have to say, however, that while the GridLock works wonderfully with the ATC-Guide and Figure-8, it is sometimes frustrating to get on and off the Smart Alpine due to it's fairly small frame and the immense width of the Smart Alpine; I have used it with a MadRock Hulk HMS that never got caught while attaching like the GridLock, BUT I cross-loaded it with the locking-mechanism caught on my belay loop on my first belay (most likely due to my lazy reliance on the GridLock safety features).

People can argue all day about GriGri-alternatives, but I like that my Smart Alpine is similar to the ATC-Guide in it's functionality (able to double-rope rappel, belay-from-above, and ability to just turn it around and use it almost like a regular ATC). Also, because I started on a GridLock, "fussing" with putting it on and taking it off isn't really an issue to me; and I *do* use it on multi-pitch to attach my device to the anchor.

Jamespio. Is the gym making you clip in as a climber? Not tie in? I've typically alsways thought of the gridlock being used as a belay biner. It's crazy a gym would rather you clip in than tie in. Are they having you clip into your belay loop?

Kevin Pula wrote:Jamespio. Is the gym making you clip in as a climber? Not tie in? I've typically alsways thought of the gridlock being used as a belay biner. It's crazy a gym would rather you clip in than tie in. Are they having you clip into your belay loop?

Yes, the climber is required to clip in, to a fixed loop on the sharp end of the rope. For a while there, the climber had to use two lockers (that's when I bought the gridlocks). This is clearly a gym that does not trust its customers, and will do most anything to avoid liability.

It irritates me, a little, because if there is one thing I would like to force myself and my kids to practice thousands of times, it is tying a figure 8. Also, the loop to which the climber clips is created with plastic zip ties. I have no idea if that configuration has been properly tested, o rhow often they replace it. But I do know it has held my falls just fine, and I'm definitely among the heavier climbers in this gym.

Brad M wrote: How on earth is a grigri too intricate or advanced?

It's kind of like learning to drive with a standard transmission instead of an automatic. I learned how to drive a standard 30 years ago, so I think it's important that everyone learns that too. And if they don't, it makes me feel kind of special!

Alan-C wrote:I've got a Magnetron GridLock to pair with my ATC-Guide, Smart Alpine, and Figure-8 (with a few RockLock twists and screws to facilitate belaying-from-above). I haven't belayed with the Figure-8 yet (but I love it for the smooth rappel). I have to say, however, that while the GridLock works wonderfully with the ATC-Guide and Figure-8, it is sometimes frustrating to get on and off the Smart Alpine due to it's fairly small frame and the immense width of the Smart Alpine; I have used it with a MadRock Hulk HMS that never got caught while attaching like the GridLock, BUT I cross-loaded it with the locking-mechanism caught on my belay loop on my first belay (most likely due to my lazy reliance on the GridLock safety features). People can argue all day about GriGri-alternatives, but I like that my Smart Alpine is similar to the ATC-Guide in it's functionality (able to double-rope rappel, belay-from-above, and ability to just turn it around and use it almost like a regular ATC). Also, because I started on a GridLock, "fussing" with putting it on and taking it off isn't really an issue to me; and I *do* use it on multi-pitch to attach my device to the anchor.

The GridLock is quite annoying when used on a Smart Alpine. You'd be much better off with the Rocklock-style biner (Magnetron for extra points). I prefer using a Gridlock with every single belay device (Cinch, Grigri, ATC, MegaJul) except the Smart Alpine.

- start learning with an ATC style device ... the most important thing as a beginner is to drill in over and over again the absolute and utter importance of a solid brake hand ... i am a fan of assisted locking devices, but many of the folks i know and see who learn on them or use em exclusively have shiet for brake hand control ... and that will come back and bite you eventually ... theres a reason why folks still get dropped on grigris

- as mentioned the ATC guide feeds easier than a reverso on those thicker gym ropes

- it also lasts longer than a reverso which are known to wear out to sharp edges rather quickly

- i always tell folks just to get the guide ... a belay device should last for years and in that time frame you may well do multi where the guide has certain advantages over a normal ATC ... also the dual friction mode is quite useful

- you can munter on most normal sized biners with a 10mm rope if needed ... itll probably be an emergency and you dont need the biggest honking biners at that point

- get a round stock biner for your belay device ... those fancy ibeam biners will wear to a sharp edge .. unless you are trying to go UL in the alpine/multi theres no reason for those $$$$ UL biners ... you can see a DMM boa gets a sharp edge while the petzl william still retrains a smooth profile with similar wear ...

- magnetron gridlock??? ... use em if you want, but millions of folks belay just fine with normal biners ... nor do the IFSC and other climbing comps require em, and those folks take more whippers than most of us

- for the alpine smart use the petzl william ... it is the smoothest feeding biner and wears fairly evenly

- to prolong the life of your device ... dont use just one of the holes like most folks do ... use both ... i use the right side for lead belaying and the left for TR belaying ...

;)

bearbreeder wrote:- ... dont use just one of the holes like most folks do ... use both ... i use the right side for lead belaying and the left for TR belaying ... ;)

A friend showed me a ATC guide that was worn out. He said from rappelling. Part of it worn down until it was sharp enough to cut rope or a finger. Was this wornout from what you're talking about?

Kirby1013 wrote: A friend showed me a ATC guide that was worn out. He said from rappelling. Part of it worn down until it was sharp enough to cut rope or a finger. Was this wornout from what you're talking about?

rapping wears our devices quicker ...

so will belaying and TRing ...

when it gets sharp i just retire the device ... i beam biners will wear out into sharp edges as well eventually

some folks sandpaper or file off any sharp edges if the device is still structurally sound ... i leave that decision up to you

;)

Brad M wrote: How on earth is a grigri too intricate or advanced?

Really? Like you don't see people struggling to learn to belay with a normal ATC? I have personally seen quite a few brand new belayers struggle with the gri-gri which they clearly should not have been using. Just because you know how to use it, doesn't mean that it easy for a newbie. Point in case is how much re-education Petzl is doing to show people how to properly use them (read: because they are using them wrong).

sorry man my personal opinion is recommending a gri-gri to a person that doesn't even know what belay carabiner to purchase is not a great idea. If he had someone to show him how to properly use it, he wouldn't be on the interweb asking what device to get.

Belaying isn't a place to learn by trial and error. Of course that's just my opinion.

Jamespio wrote:... This is clearly a gym that does not trust its customers, and will do most anything to avoid liability. .... Also, the loop to which the climber clips is created with plastic zip ties.

Hold on a minute here... zip ties!?

I think you may have it backwards; between that and the clipping in it looks like they're trying to collect as much liability as possible!

Haha. +1 ^

Okay, what is the name of the gym you are going to that has a rope, attached to a zip tie(s), attached to a carabiner, attached to your harness?

A quick google search for "zip ties climbing gym" gave me this thread: "woman falls to death at climbing gym"

Alan-C wrote:Okay, what is the name of the gym you are going to that has a rope, attached to a zip tie(s), attached to a carabiner, attached to your harness? A quick google search for "zip ties climbing gym" gave me this thread: "woman falls to death at climbing gym"

That is not what I said was the set up. I'm trying to remember it more preicsely. It's a while since I climbed indoors. Hell, it's a few weeks since I climbed at all.

In fact, I think the zip ties are only used as an alternative to a safety knot below the belay device (this gym uses Cinch auto-lockers, which are awful). They bend the end of the rope back on itself and zip tie it with several zip ties which creates something that won't pass through the cinch. Of course, a knot also won't pass through a Cinch, but I guess they figure people might untie a knot.

At the sharp end, they pre-tie a fig-8, which you are required to attach to your belay loop with a locker. this is the point at which they used to require either double locker or a gridlock style device that resists crossloading. Like I said, I'd rather tie my own fig-8 but was told that's a no-no. I'd also pefer to tie in to both the leg and waist loops, rather than just to the belay loop, but if I can't tie my own knot, I can't do that, either.

Yes, it probably all sounds a bit wonky, but it's a decent gym and I'm just glad they manage to stay open in what is probably a lean market.

Jamespio wrote:A cross loaded biner is not much of a safety issue

That's what I used to think. Then this happened to me: mountainproject.com/v/old-d…

Except that I was talking about a cross-loaded biner hooked between a belay loop and a Figure-8. Your story makes me think that a double locker,or even just double non-locking biners between the belay device and the belay loop might make sense, but that's not what my gym was requiring.

Looks like that particular biner is almost round, and would be very easy to cross load. The more oval in hsape a biner is, it seems to me, the less likely to cross load in the first place.