Greg D wrote: Umm. Or you could learn to climb till you fall instead of yelling take every five feet.

Or you can admit you are not much of a project belayer...nothing wrong with that.

beccs wrote: Seriously? You've never had to clip into the anchors of a route to thread the anchor? If a person is too lazy to sit on the rope to take you tight enough for anchor cleaning, do you seriously think they're going to do anything extra to give you a good catch?

Not really that seariously, but I won't keep giving big tension pulls if thats how your going to get up a climb. I sort of like to employ the 3 tries RULE.

Unless we have a prior understanding about a project.

Then I'll sit there as long as you need me.

biggest pet peeve is when someone i'm belaying sinks 2 feet after i take because of rope stretch (or because i slightly shift into a more comfortable position to hold them while they're hanging, etc.) and they freak out and scream "I SAID TAKE -- HOLD ME HERE!" chill out, you're going to wind up sinking 2 feet every now and then, and no matter how overhanging the route is, it's really not a big deal. if we're talking about sinking >2 feet, then yes, that's poor belaying, but 2 feet every now and then is just part of doing business, and if getting back up those 2 feet is a huge struggle, you've got other issues to sort out

I'm not sure if this makes it in the top five for a great belayer but.. A friend of a friend belayed me last week and every time I clipped a draw on a route that I thought was above my limit he yelled something encouraging. It made the whole time on the route really comfortable.

Jon H wrote:Palms down belaying, period. If your brake hand faces palm-up, I probably won't climb with you.

Oh, I'm so insulted.

Palms-up vs. Palms-down? There're advantages and disadvantages to both.

The main disadvantage of palms-down, as Petzl and you recommend, is that it is ergonomically inferior to palms up. It limits the range of motion of your brake hand. Belayers that use Petzl's method can neither feed or take in rope as fast as palms up. It's also more difficult to lock off the device (it's much more ergonomic to lock-off at your hip, rather than with your hand down between your legs).

I first saw "palms-down" being recommended in the late 80's when climbing gyms (and their insurance companies) were coming into existence. I tried it, but found it to be uncomfortable, inefficient and not as practical.

The ONLY advantage I see it that insurance companies like it.

John Byrnes wrote: Oh, I'm so insulted. Palms-up vs. Palms-down? There're advantages and disadvantages to both. The main disadvantage of palms-down, as Petzl and you recommend, is that it is ergonomically inferior to palms up. It limits the range of motion of your brake hand. Belayers that use Petzl's method can neither feed or take in rope as fast as palms up. It's also more difficult to lock off the device (it's much more ergonomic to lock-off at your hip, rather than with your hand down between your legs). I first saw "palms-down" being recommended in the late 80's when climbing gyms (and their insurance companies) were coming into existence. I tried it, but found it to be uncomfortable, inefficient and not as practical. The ONLY advantage I see it that insurance companies like it.

Don't feel bad. Jon won't climb with me either and he's never seen me belay! Haha.. I wasn't insulted just embrassed and disappointed.

2012 IFSC world cup finals in atlanta ...

the first climber was belayed palms up

the second palms down ...

those top level gym rats take more whippers than anyone else here ... as long as you are skilled and experienced either one will work fine

youtube.com/watch?v=bwrTISv…

you can feed and brake just fine with either but the palms down belaying is "more reliable" in that your hands are close to the braking position ... which BTW you can brake just fine into the hip, not between the legs

For 25 years I used and taught the classic “pinch” method of belaying: hands on rope palms up and pinkies toward the belay device, draw in rope; slide the feeding hand up and pinch both ropes; and recover the brake hand to the starting position. For 25 years I experienced frighteningly poor early results, just like with Bubba.
Last summer, while working for Mountain Adventure Seminars in Bear Valley, California, I taught several climbing courses with K.C. Baum of the American Mountain Guides Association Technical Committee. He recommended that I start teaching a more reliable, easier-to-master belay: the “hands-down” method. One demo and I was convinced — this is a better belay to teach, especially for toproping.

climbing.com/skill/tech-tip…

;)

bearbreeder wrote:2012 IFSC world cup finals in atlanta ... the first climber was belayed palms up the second palms down ... those top level gym rats take more whippers than anyone else here ... as long as you are skilled and experienced either one will work fine

That's a three-hour video? Forgive me, but I won't be watching that. :)

FrankPS wrote: That's a three-hour video? Forgive me, but I won't be watching that. :)

just watch the women climb ... some of em have perfect technique ...

;)

John Byrnes wrote: Oh, I'm so insulted.

My statements weren't meant to be insulting. You might be an exceptional belayer for all I know. And there are plenty of excellent belayers who choose to use the palms up method. But there are many more who just continue in ignorance doing what they first learned and give inadequate, weak belays with an ATC. Or worse, they use a GriGri palm up, which means they can't feed the rope without letting go of the brake strand and pinching the GriGri cam shut. It was only 2-3 weeks ago that someone posted here that he sustained severe rope burns to his hand and the climber hit the deck when the grigri failed to lock due to this exact practice!

I didn't make my post to attack anyone, I'm only attacking a method which nearly put me in the dirt.

Your range of motion is actually decreased with the palm up. Turning your palm up while trying to retract the arm (e.g. the motion of engaging the brake strand) engages your shoulder and scapula which locks everything down. With your palm facing down, you use your triceps to pull, leaving your shoulder loose and able to move 360 degrees.

When belaying palm up, the rope pulls against your fingers and not against your palm which is WAY stronger. Do you think it's hard to pull a rope out through someone's closed fingers, or through a closed palm. It doesn't take a genius to figure out.

And who positions their break hand between their legs? No matter the method or the belay device, the break hand goes to your hip. You hold the rope the same way you would when holding a dog leash. Why flip your hand around? Palm up is not a position of comfort, nor of strength. In terms of braking force, again, palms down is superior. Think about playing tug of war. Would you ever hold the rope in a palms-up position playing tug of war or holding a dog leash? Of course not.

Perhaps, just maybe perhaps, we know a little more than we did back in the 80's? What other practices that have gone more-or-less extinct since then? American Death Triangles, 1/4" bolts, swami belts, etc.

You're absolutely right that manufacturers are afraid of litigation. And because of that, they've stopped recommending palms-up belaying. It's inherently inferior and less secure.

Kirby1013 wrote: Don't feel bad. Jon won't climb with me either and he's never seen me belay!

When was that ever the case Bill? I expressed concrete interest in roping up with you over the winter multiple times over several emails but our schedules never lined up. I just double checked my email to make sure. I'd rather take this one to PM's - shoot me a message if you feel its necessary.

Jon H wrote: Or worse, they use a GriGri palm up, which means they can't feed the rope without letting go of the brake strand and pinching the GriGri cam shut. It was only 2-3 weeks ago that someone posted here that he sustained severe rope burns to his hand and the climber hit the deck when the grigri failed to lock due to this exact practice!

Unless it's an entirely different thread you're talking about, I don't think the climber decked and I think there were a few more variables involved than just a palm-up Grigri belay:

quoting from John Byrnes' post in that "I wouldn't be that stupid" thread:

"1) You held the cam open with your left hand and fed with the right. This was proven to be bad 20 years ago because people decked. This is so passe' I won't bother with details.

2) You have burns on your hands; plural. The ONLY way to get this is by grabbing the climber's side of the rope AND the brake side simultaneously, and usually, the belayer doesn't even realize he's doing it. "

Dan Austin wrote:biggest pet peeve is when someone i'm belaying sinks 2 feet after i take because of rope stretch (or because i slightly shift into a more comfortable position to hold them while they're hanging, etc.) and they freak out and scream "I SAID TAKE -- HOLD ME HERE!" chill out, you're going to wind up sinking 2 feet every now and then, and no matter how overhanging the route is, it's really not a big deal. if we're talking about sinking >2 feet, then yes, that's poor belaying, but 2 feet every now and then is just part of doing business, and if getting back up those 2 feet is a huge struggle, you've got other issues to sort out

+1

Jon H wrote: When was that ever the case Bill? I expressed concrete interest in roping up with you over the winter multiple times over several emails but our schedules never lined up. I just double checked my email to make sure. I'd rather take this one to PM's - shoot me a message if you feel its necessary.

Haha.. I know i know.. I thought you might laugh at my comment since we never got to meet up. God knows it wasnt from lack of trying! There should a certain italic to use when trying to be funny.

I thought John's comment was funny and wasnt serious. So I thought i would add on. I can't speak for John but you shouldn't take either one of us serious.

bearbreeder wrote:I start teaching a more reliable, easier-to-master belay: the “hands-down” method. One demo and I was convinced — this is a better belay to teach, especially for toproping. climbing.com/skill/tech-tip… ;)

Was taught 20 years ago palms down and I always thought the palms up was awkward and dumb because your hand was inverted from the braking postion and not nearly as secure on the brake side (it could get ripped out much easier from your hand). glad to see some others are advocating palm down these days.

I use palms down for an ATC and palms-up "classic" technique for a Grigri, at some point I may try to practice the "new" technique more seriously, but right now I just cannot feed slack quickly enough for clips with that technique.

In the video, Petzl recommends the new technique, but doesn't put the skull and crossbones next to the classic technique like it does w the "depress cam w left hand and feed w right hand" technique (one that caused long fall in the other thread).

I didn't see that anyone made this point yet...but aside from the myriad technical requirements of a good belay, and paying attention, etc., there is another quality I REALLY appreciate in certain belayers. That is the ability to provide solid mental support and help keep the vibe positive and the psyche flowing. Worst thing EVER is when my belayer looks up at the pitch I'm about to lead and declares it a "death climb". Or when people get scared and then start acting weird and being intentionally irritating. I can think of a couple climbs where the pitch looked tough, but the actual crux was ignoring my belayer and turning inward for the send. Way more dangerous than some kind of "palms up or down" issue IMO.

WFR cert doesn't hurt either ;)

Jon H wrote: My statements weren't meant to be insulting.

No, just closed-minded and rather ignorant. (No offense meant.)

The bottom line is that belaying is about controlling the brake strand in every situation: sport, trad, standing, sitting, wedged-in-a-crack, top-rope, lead, slab, overhanging, roof, pendulum, dynamic, static, gloves, ATC, Gri-gri, twins, doubles... the list goes on and on.

Even though novices put a death-grip on the rope, strength has little to do with control (unless you're using an old ATC with a 9.0mm rope) so your focus on it is revealing.

Humans tend to hold things palm up because it's the most natural (ergonomic) way to do it. When someone hands something to you, that's how you take it. (check your DNA)

Palms-down seems to be easier for novice gym climbers to use and for this reason it is the "approved" method. Since Petzl will do just about anything to avoid being sued they recommend PD, and so the insurance companies stipulate it, without understanding the pros and cons. (This is the same reason the Figure-8 knot is the only knot allowed in gyms.)

But there's a world of difference between a novice and an expert belayer. As has been pointed out previously, both PD and PU are used by experts. To say you won't let anyone using PU to belay you because someone almost dropped you is like saying you won't be a passenger in a car driven by a woman because some other woman almost had an accident with you in the car.

In conclusion, I really don't care if I change your mind. It's not worth my time. I just don't like to see blind and biased statements like yours going unchallenged.

grip strength matters ... the grip strength of your normal population is distributed as a standard bell curve ...

theres folks out there with 1/4-1/2 the average grip strength and thats with a GLOVED hand ...

climbing is popular enough that these folks are probably climbing and belaying

from the 2006 International Technical Rescue Symposium ...

Mauthner – Gripping Ability on Rope in Motion study

caves.org/section/vertical/…

from the german journal of mountain risk management (google translation)

Results of hand strength tests
The average maximum hand forces of the subjects
distinguish the various rope diameter
, as adopted, clearly. From the values ​​of Table 1
it is evident that the manual force values ​​at increasing cable diameter
are also larger. Rise in absolute terms
the static hand force values ​​of 237 N (8.9 mm) 284 N
(10.5 mm) to 329 N (13 mm). The rope with the rope diameter
10.5 mm were the subjects better by 20%
hold, as the 8.9 mm cable. At 13 mm and the double rope
this value even at 38%! Behave similarly to
dynamic values.
The comparison of right and left hand shows that there is no
is significant difference exists.
The scatter of the maximum forces are both in the static
significantly as well as in the dynamic tests. This
illustrates how wide spread the hand forces in the population
are. The static values ​​are between 125 N and 500 N
(Ø 8.9 mm) or 200 N and 625 N (Ø 13 mm). For the dynamic
Try to values ​​of 230 N to 656 N (Ø 8.9
mm) and 305 N to 937 N (Ø 2x8, 0 mm) is reached.
Furthermore, one can have the following conclusions from the
Pull investigation: the hand force is only the factor
Gender, but not of climbing experience (beginner-advanced),
Weight or Rotpunktniveau the subject
affected. Women have on average about 20% less
Hand force than men.
Climbers with large grip force prefer weak braking
Devices, whereas people with lower hand force
preferred to work with the HMS. In addition, the climbers have
a relatively good self-assessment with regard to their hand strength.
Your estimated hand force, divided into low ( 250 and 325 N) was consistent with the
determined hand force values ​​largely agree

bergundsteigen.at/file.php/…(die%20bremskraftverst%E4rker).pdf

;)

bearbreeder wrote:grip strength matters ...

I respectfully disagree. Sure, you need enough grip strength to put the rope into the braking position but no more. The belay device provides the friction. We've all see 12-year-old kids belaying their dads with an ATC-like device (with extra weight clipped to their belay-loops).

I say "ATC-like" because the original ATC doesn't give as much braking power as more modern devices, or even my old Stitch-plate.

Of course, if the belayer isn't trained well enough to put the rope into the best braking position, your point is valid. And yes, I've seen that A LOT! There's lots of bad belayers out there, gripping the rope for all they're worth.

Now if we're talking about belaying with a Gri-gri or similar device, then you can belay with two fingers or less.