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Intro to NC

Mark O'Neal · · Nicholson, GA · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,323

I'll go ahead and concede defeat to many of you right now. But I can lead your warm ups for you. It's going to be on!

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718

Sounds like a consensus then, Table Rock this November? I'm in!

On second thought, a little shit talking might be fun, especially from the geriatric crowd (as long as nobody gets their feelings hurt).

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265
Mark O'Neal wrote:I'll go ahead and concede defeat to many of you right now. But I can lead your warm ups for you. It's going to be on!
there are a few good moderate routes up there and a good bit of potential so i wouldnt sweat it. but there is also stuff thats just ridiculous up there as well.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
TomCaldwell wrote: There does seem to be a correlation of old age to making routes safer. I can think of several recent FA retros or new routes that have had more safety margin than they would have years ago by the old-timers. So don't point the finger at the younger generation boo or Jim. The geezers are getting soft, especially in the middle.


More like the geezers have had more experience in life..and death, and aren't as ruled by youthful testosterone and proving how manly they are. Notice in general it is guys who make a big deal about the need to do big runouts and the size of their balls. Most women I know think it is pretty silly.
Mtn. Dumass · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

If the FA puts up a turd. It should be cleaned up. Either by adding, moving, or chopping. 1 bolt on a 1000ft climb? Does that count as a retro? The so called runout pitch(on groover) didn't need a bolt. It was the last pitch that needed a bolt.
NC has more crappy FA's than bold. I was dumb enough to do this route in crap style now everybody else should follow my dukie stain. NC climbing is borderline wasted resource.
I'm just glad I learned to climb on these so called runout slabs.

Jonathan Dull · · Boone, NC · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 415
Mtn. Dumass wrote: If the FA puts up a turd. It should be cleaned up. Either by adding, moving, or chopping. 1 bolt on a 1000ft climb? Does that count as a retro? The so called runout pitch(on groover) didn't need a bolt. It was the last pitch that needed a bolt. NC has more crappy FA's than bold. I was dumb enough to do this route in crap style now everybody else should follow my dukie stain. NC climbing is borderline wasted resource. I'm just glad I learned to climb on these so called runout slabs.
At least your profile name is fitting.
Mtn. Dumass · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

^^^ your last name suits you as well.

Brian Payst · · Carrboro,NC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10
nbrown wrote:Sounds like a consensus then, Table Rock this November? I'm in! On second thought, a little shit talking might be fun, especially from the geriatric crowd (as long as nobody gets their feelings hurt).
The fine art of NC shit talking is fading slowly from the scene. As an avid practitioner for many years I'm sad to see it go. Hey wait, did you just call me old?
Chris Whisenhunt · · Fayetteville, WV · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 995

Well at least Medic741 now knows not to post anything about NC slab climbing on the interwebz. I guess it could be worse...he could have asked his question on carolinaclimbers.org :p

Brian Payst · · Carrboro,NC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10
Chris Whisenhunt wrote:Well at least Medic741 now knows not to post anything about NC slab climbing on the interwebz. I guess it could be worse...he could have asked his question on carolinaclimbers.org :p
Yes, he could have and we would have been happy to answer it there. Sure, there might be some folks with attitude, but no worse than the rest of the interwebz. Disclaimer - I'm the current CCC President, so I'm a little biased.
rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265
Brian Payst wrote: Yes, he could have and we would have been happy to answer it there. Sure, there might be some folks with attitude, but no worse than the rest of the interwebz. Disclaimer - I'm the current CCC President, so I'm a little biased.
on a different note, what's the current status of GT...i've heard through the rumor mill that at some point the ball was dropped and a chance at access was lost? I've been too busy with school to stay in the loop

T
BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
M Sprague wrote: More like the geezers have had more experience in life..and death, and aren't as ruled by youthful testosterone and proving how manly they are. Notice in general it is guys who make a big deal about the need to do big runouts and the size of their balls. Most women I know think it is pretty silly.
See, this is where it gets all twisted...
As an Northerner, you might need some details.
You might not.
This plays out like a modern Southern novel with all the drama and history.

The runout mantra actually seems to belong more to the older crowd here in the SE.
To start, I would like us all to reference the Big Green opening in the 3rd edition Kelley guide.
And then, there's folks like Shannon.
Stegg is now putting up many, very well protected, high quality moderates in NC.
BITD, he put up some things that I, personally, have feared death in trying to repeat...
Then there's the guys in NC at the time....again, way serious runouts.
It seems that it was just the way things were done.
And getting on the old, obscure, high quality lines...as some of us know, there is no way to deny the power of the experience.

Nathan, Andrew, and others are putting up much harder lines, some of which are very scary to us laymen, but which are generally better protected.
There is no doubt, from any of the parties, that these guys are taking us boldly into the future.
Reference: Laurel Knob headwall routes and routes right of Fathom.
Thing is, the NC Olde Guarde seems silent nowadays....so more and closer bolts seem the trend.

The testosterone is manifesting here in the venue.
The laughable suggestion that the SE Face of Table Rock could be considered slab is a jab at the "geezers" amongst us.
Of course, there are 'doable' lines there....but, still.

Paul mentioned "fixing" Big Green.
I think Big Green has a lot to offer.
I like the new, better protected lines there.
The old ones, though, have a character all their own and I feel it's good that there are routes like this somewhere on the East Coast.
rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

Ben you know that table rock is a slab ;)

Brian Payst · · Carrboro,NC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10
rock_fencer wrote: on a different note, what's the current status of GT...i've heard through the rumor mill that at some point the ball was dropped and a chance at access was lost? I've been too busy with school to stay in the loop T
I wouldn't say that is accurate. The property at the base changed hands very quickly and very expensively a couple of years ago, but the cliff itself is part of Chimney Rock State Park. The CCC is still very much engaged with the park and once their climbing management plan is finished there will be the possibility that new areas will open. It's just a slow process, but that's how agencies operate. The good news is that the park staff are quite climber friendly and relations are probably better than they have ever been.

There's also more rock down there than just GT. We recently worked with the town to open up some new boulders.
carolinaclimbers.org/blogs/…
rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265
Brian Payst wrote: I wouldn't say that is accurate.
thats good to know...like i said rumor mill...ton's of good rock in that area. Hopefully this new bouldering place will help spread out some bouldering traffic from the bald
Jim Corbett · · Keene, NY · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 10
Mtn. Dumass wrote: If the FA puts up a turd. It should be cleaned up. Either by adding, moving, or chopping. 1 bolt on a 1000ft climb? Does that count as a retro? The so called runout pitch(on groover) didn't need a bolt. It was the last pitch that needed a bolt. NC has more crappy FA's than bold. I was dumb enough to do this route in crap style now everybody else should follow my dukie stain. NC climbing is borderline wasted resource. I'm just glad I learned to climb on these so called runout slabs.
Apparently, a lot of people here need a history lesson. Back in 'ancient times'--i.e. the '80s and '90s--we led from the ground up and drilled by hand. We felt like this was a purer adventure, which I still believe. Still have my Petzl self-drives. I have never owned a power drill and consider it a complete waste of money and weight (like a gri-gri). I have drilled a few bolts using a power drill on southern sandstone, and even on rappel, because that makes sense on vertical to past vertical one pitch routes. For multi-pitch less than vertical NC granite, it's a complete puss out.

One of the implications of this choice is that you get a lot fewer bolts. I understand that this is well illustrated by a route Thomas put up at LK (I think Canyons of Laurel, but this is second hand info), where he drilled P1 by hand, then came back later and drilled P2 with his shiny new Bosch. Despite reasonably similar difficulties, P2 has something like 3x the bolts. Hmmm. Speaking from experience, after you have spent 30 min. of terror (minimum, I have had hour plus horror shows) on tenuous slopers, usually quite a ways out, your feet screaming, getting a bolt in, you tell yourself, 'Be god damned if I'm going to do that again anytime soon.' So for the most part, the run outs in NC are not the result of testosterone or trying to show who has the biggest balls but simply a choice dictated by the style chosen(there are exceptions that were mainly the result of Jeep, Doc, Whitney, Thomas, etc. one upsmanship with each other, but those are few and mainly very hard test pieces e.g. Legendary Nuclear Bomb, although this certainly had an effect on how Big Green was developed).

The main thing to remember is what a FA is. The FA party did not 'create' the route (or at least they had better effing not have), that was always there. All a first ascent is is a demonstration that the route can be climbed and the maximum amount of gear required to do so safely. (Don't try to quibble about what constitutes 'safe', if the FA made it to the top unhurt then it was objectively climbed safely). And the FA party does not 'own' the route afterward to do with what they will, again, the route was there for millennia before and will be again after. The FA merely has a demonstrated achievement that can only be diminished if they or anyone else goes back after to 'fix' it by making it 'safer'. Remember that especially on this kind of climbing, safety lies entirely on you, not bolts. And anyone going to repeat the route has a huge advantage over the FA party in that the bolts are in, they know where the route goes and that goes, and probably the grade at which it goes. They really have no bitch.

As far as Dumbass, it's not the FA's responsibility to 'equip' the route as a playground for everyone else to follow, that's what gyms are for. If you can't deal with the style, that hardly makes the route a turd, it just means that maybe you aren't cut out for that sort of thing.
Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 125
Jim Corbett wrote: As far as Dumbass, it's not the FA's responsibility to 'equip' the route as a playground for everyone else to follow, that's what gyms are for. If you can't deal with the style, that hardly makes the route a turd, it just means that maybe you aren't cut out for the sort of thing.
"Equipping a route" can certainly be done badly though. I helped out a bit with the replacement of fixed gear at Laurel and there was some serious mank there. Not just stuff that deteriorated over many years but stuff that was probably bad just a few months after it was placed (e.g. bailing wire hangers on crappy hardware store bolts). Does the FA party have a responsibility to not make a mess like that?
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Emil Briggs wrote: Does the FA party have a responsibility to not make a mess like that?
Yes, if they want to have any say in what happens to it later.
Jim Corbett · · Keene, NY · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 10
Emil Briggs wrote: "Equipping a route" can certainly be done badly though. I helped out a bit with the replacement of fixed gear at Laurel and there was some serious mank there. Not just stuff that deteriorated over many years but stuff that was probably bad just a few months after it was placed (e.g. bailing wire hangers on crappy hardware store bolts). Does the FA party have a responsibility to not make a mess like that?
Straw man argument. The 'washer bolts' are circa '70s from ignorant rednecks (full disclosure: I'm an ignorant redneck)thrashing about with little knowledge and little way to acquire the knowledge of how to bolt a route. That has nothing to do with the state of climbing today and what is generally known.

That said, there are a lot of old 8mm self drives scattered around the Cashiers area (many if not most in no guidebook and likely never will be) that I drilled that are approaching or passed their 20th birthday. If you're drilling by hand, they made sense. Depending upon their location and appearance I would likely still be comfortable climbing above them, but I can see where others wouldn't and I have no kick with anyone replacing any of them in the exact same location if they so choose. But no, that's not my job.
Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 125
Jim Corbett wrote: Straw man argument. The 'washer bolts' are circa '70s from ignorant rednecks (full disclosure: I'm an ignorant redneck)thrashing about with little knowledge and little way to acquire the knowledge of how to bolt a route. That has nothing to do with the state of climbing today and what is generally known. That said, there are a lot of old 8mm self drives scattered around the Cashiers area (many if not most in no guidebook and likely never will be) that I drilled that are approaching or passed their 20th birthday. If you're drilling by hand, they made sense. Depending upon their location and appearance I would likely still be comfortable climbing above them, but I can see where others wouldn't and I have no kick with anyone replacing any of them in the exact same location if they so choose. But no, that's not my job.
I thought this thread was about older routes though in which case it's not really a straw man argument. By your own admission above some of the climbers from that era didn't know much about how to bolt a route. Presumably Mike knows more about it now than he did then and he went back and added the bolt to Groover. I'll add my own disclosure here that I like climbing runout slab routes and I don't approve of retrobolting in general. But in specific cases I think it's warranted. There is of course the whole question of getting the FA parties approval but I think there have even been cases in NC where a member of the FA party has added a bolt to his own route and had someone else chop it!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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