Mountain Project Logo

Development question: How to proceed?

Original Post
Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

Hey guys! I was visiting my friends cabin in Vermont over the weekend for some climbing and he showed me a cool place he discovered on his land a few years back.. It turned out to be a super sweet overhaving roof about 20 feet tall and 15 feet of horizontal. It looks like it goes, but it also looks like its right at the limit of our climbing. See pictures below...

My situation is this. We want to climb it, but because of its steep overhanging nature, and the amount of vegetation behind it, a top rope wouldn't be possible as is. We can clear some trees out behind the climb, where a person would swing, but it would still be a mighty swing. The obvious line through the roof is a crack that is not vertically oriented. It takes gear, mostly cams (I had some trouble getting at the middle), but they are oriented so that they are perpendicular to the ground, and would get pretty banged up on a fall. I'm thinking a bunch of X4's would maybe work better, but I don't really feel like dropping the money on a bunch of cams for this one project. I also am not really confident enough to lead something like this. My thought was potentially putting some bolts up top, as well as a few in the actual roof, and turning it into a short sport climb, or just doing the climb on top rope, but use the bolts a directionals to keep a climber from swinging way out and into the bank behind the climb. However.. I have no bolting experience..

Here's what I think I'm going to do:

Clean some vegetation out from behind the climb as well as brush off all the moss on the lower, easy section leading up to the roof

Figure out how to safely bolt the climb so it can be done safely at the level I am currently at, with the hope of potentially leading it one day??

So my real question is, what would you do if you came across this gem??? Please keep in mind that I am not asking how to bolt and what bolts I should use, if I go this route I will seek advice from some of the locals on what works in VT..

Any advice is welcome!

Roof 1

Roof 2

Roof 3

Sorry for the shitty photos, all I had was an iPhone and I was pretty low battery.. Its hard to tell the scale of the actual climb from the photo. Essentially its a few very easy moves up crappy Vermont schist to a beautiful arching roof on smooth high quality rock. The roof is about 15 feet of horizontal and is probably 10+ moves across. Top out is very questionable at this stage, doesn't look like theres a ton on the top but its currently pretty mossy and gross up top.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

Every photo shows a perfect crack. I don't understand, how would cams get 'banged up' in a fall?

Paul Trendler · · Bend, Oregon · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 111

Looks like a boulder problem! I woul bring a pad, rap in from the top and clean the top out a little, then go for it.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

I say if you don't want to go straight out the roof, you should be trad climbing the crack. Alternatively you could just use a bunch of bouldering pads and play the highball game.

Best of luck man! If I had found it I'd be out there too.

Shane Zentner · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 205

I wouldn't bolt the crack if it will take cams, which it looks as though it will. Plus, that's a serious boulder problem which would require several pads and a good spotter(s).

Climb the crack as it should be climbed. You do realize that your post will undoubtedly open up a serious can of worms.

Nice find and good luck.

Shane

Dylan Randall · · Nashville, TN · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 615
Shane Zentner wrote:I wouldn't bolt the crack if it will take cams, which it looks as though it will. Plus, that's a serious boulder problem which would require several pads and a good spotter(s). Climb the crack as it should be climbed. You do realize that your post will undoubtedly open up a serious can of worms. Nice find and good luck. Shane
popcorn popping.
Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

I appreciate the replies so far..

I do think its probably bolderable, but I'm not a huge fan of buying 600 dollars or more in pads, not to mention that theres a pretty big sloping bank leading down to the bottom, so overall it would it be a messy landing, but I agree, doable.

It does take gear, but I don't think its quite doable for me to lead from the ground up. I also don't really know if its going to be completely possible for me in the first place. The crack itself isn't vertical, its actually more horizontal, so most of the cam placements are almost completely parallel to the roof. I really do not have a ton of experience on the sharp end and maybe its my lack of understanding thats holding me back from trying it entirely on gear. What I was able to get in got pretty bent up because the cams were folding at almost a 90 degree angle in the middle of the stem. They all hold, but the whole thing just did not look good. I only have one X4, so maybe I will consider expanding my rack and giving it another go. I certainly would not want to bolt anything if I didn't have to.

Mike Morin · · Glen, NH · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,355

It's on private land owned by your friend. As far as development ethics go it seems like the only opinion that really matters is the one held by your friend, the land owner. In this case I think you two should just do whatever will make it fun an interesting for the two of you. Personally though I wouldn't bolt it.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

Perpendicular placements in horizontal cracks is generally not a problem for flexible stemmed cams (rigid stemmed with a gunks tie off maybe even better). Yeah, they get kinked but they'll get kinked over time no matter what.

You might try setting some fixed nuts while you're working the route. Maybe some fixed nuts and a strategic cam or two while you work the route on TR. That way you can dial it so when you go for the lead you aren't taking big whips on every placement.

Keith Earley · · Portland, OR · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 25
Max Forbes wrote: The crack itself isn't vertical, its actually more horizontal, so most of the cam placements are almost completely parallel to the roof. I really do not have a ton of experience on the sharp end and maybe its my lack of understanding thats holding me back from trying it entirely on gear. What I was able to get in got pretty bent up because the cams were folding at almost a 90 degree angle in the middle of the stem. They all hold, but the whole thing just did not look good.
Because this is a horizontal roof there should be less bending, not more. If the cam is oriented vertically and you fall down, the cam should be pulling in the direction of the stem.

I agree that it does look a bit sketchy as a boulder problem, and I think leading it should go. You can always work it on top-rope, or if you want figure out the gear, you could aid the roof as well.

Nice find and good luck on the send!
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

It's your friend's land -- do what you feel.

If you want to lead/work it on gear, you don't necessarily have to lead it ground up. Preplace gear, TR it with some cams/nuts for directionals, whatever. No sense putting bolts in the face when the crack will take gear IMO.

Brady3 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 15

Hexes are cheaper than cams and if properly sized should be bomber in the camming configuration in that crack, also they won't kink as much though it shouldn't be a problem with a flexible stem cam anyways.

As others have said though, the land owner sets the ethics.

chosspector · · San Juans, CO · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 1,296

Go West

Nick Russell · · Bristol, UK · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 2,605

My inclination is either:

2. Trad/aid. If you don't want to just jump on lead GU, aid the crack. Then you have gear preplaced to TR it, and you can hang around to clean/brush/remove loose rock.

1. Highball. Pad it out, get a good spotter or two. If you're worried about rolling/sliding down a slope behind the roof you could always tie into a rope and have a kind of belay (not to prevent you from hitting the ground, just keeping you off the slope).

I wouldn't even consider bolting it, but then we do (like to think) we have stricter ethics on that sort of thing here in the UK...

As far as bent cams go, most flexible-stem cams (master cams, X4s, WC zeros) should be able to take that. Else, if you're aiding it, see if you can get some bomber hex/tricam placements? They might not be as good for TR-ing off subsequently though, if they can move around.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Not enough gear means buy more and/or bring in more buddies. Aid it and see if you lock in some passive gear.

Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

I appreciate the replies everyone. I am going to probably pick up another X4 or two as well as some small tricams and, like most of you suggested, leave them in and work it from the ground up. I do think that it could be bouldered, but I am not spending the money on all those pads, and I really don't have the courage... the landing is just very not cool. Thanks again for all the help.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Development question: How to proceed?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.