Belaying

beth bennett wrote:People love my belays because they get soft falls. I wish I could get the same.

Just to harp on this one point. Just because the resulting catch you give is soft doesn't mean you have any better technique than your partners, you just happen to be on the right side of the physics equation when belaying. My female partners generally just lock up the gri sit down and prepare for the ride whenever I fall. If you reciprocated the same belay I would probably kill them. I definitely have to be more carefully and mindful of my belay technique when belaying them.

Sorry to hear that yo were injured. I have had some bad belay expeinces in the past i know how frustrating they are

beth bennett wrote:- and you should communicate them. you should also pay attention to what the climber wants.

This is best done in person,(maybe over beer) not oven an internet forum.
Get better soon

Short Beta wrote:If you can't competently lead belay with a Grigri, you shouldn't be climbing...

Hmmmm.... so hard to not break guideline #1.

If you think using a Grigri is that important you shouldn't be climbing.

On topic: On of my mentors several years ago taught me to take pride in my belaying. Just like climbing, you should continue to get better at belaying, and strive to get better every time you belay. I once had a partner who was shocked that I caught her on the first bolt at the gym because the first bolt is typically only placed 6 to 9 feet off the deck in that establishment. I'd be shocked, if someone I thought was a good belayer didn't catch me on the first bolt. Even with a 50lb weight difference.

There's also a time and place for both soft and hard catches...My belayer saved me from a 25 foot deck last week by giving me a hard catch when I lost focus and fell at the third clip on a slab. Whipped 20 feet then stopped immediately resulting in three sprains in my foot/ankle. I ended up 5 feet off the ground.

Not trying to get sympathy for an injury but trying to make the point that a good belayer is able to judge the situation and give you the catch that will result in no injury (or the lesser injury) to you. If my belayer went by the rule of "always give soft catches" I could have a broken leg right now.

Just a point of view coming from a fellow light climber. I'm close to 100 pounds and sympathize with getting stiff catches.

Short Beta wrote:There's also a time and place for both soft and hard catches...that a good belayer is able to judge the situation and give you the catch that will result in no injury (or the lesser injury) to you.... the rule of "always give soft catches".... I could have a broken leg right now.

Short Beta.... good answer.

beth.... heal up now.

I always shudder when I watch busy sport crags.... sooooo many don't have a clue. You see people with GriGris and ATCs with big old loops of rope on the ground!!!!! Folks with ATC's who have their hands crossed and not paying attention at all.... Belayers paying more attention to the cute babe walking up then their shakey leader trying to get the 3rd clip.......

I am surprised that more folks arn't killed.

i'm delighted by the many replies and the awareness that most people have of the difficulty inherent in belaying. absolutely each and every climb (and leader) represents a unique situation and that's my point- it's critical to be aware of the variables influencing that situation and respond to them of course being human we make errors - but an error by the belayer can result in a serious injury or death to the climber. not something to take lightly.
my final point is that the climber should communicate - perhaps not over beers as in my experience this clouds memory- to the belayer what type of belay they want. i do this with everyone i climb with because i'm smaller than most people. now i see that in addition to telling my partners that they have to jump (or walk or keep the belay hand lower - whatever results in a dynamic catch), i have to remind them each and every climb. just wanted to put this point out there in hopes of alerting other folks

Belaying is tricky... I got a super-light-catch today, ended up a fair bit lower than I expected. See, my belayer was about 50 lbs lighter than me, but he's used to belaying someone lighter, again, then him... and he jumped into the catch. I ended up a couple bolts down on something that wasn't closely bolted. Whee. :)

Short Beta wrote:There's also a time and place for both soft and hard catches...

True.

I get depressed when I see so many posters making unequivocal statements about belaying. As if there's only one way to do it, one device to use, etc. etc.

The reality is: It Depends(tm). Is it a slab or overhanging? Good pro/bolts or three bad RP's in a row? Is the person gonna hit a ledge or the ground? Did they just pull over a roof? Will they pendulum? Did a hold break or is the person jumping off under control?

There are a butt-load of variables. Each situation (every few feet along the route) can be unique and the belayer needs to dynamically adapt to each one.

I will say this unequivocally: the equipment (Grigri vs. ATC, stretchy rope vs. not) makes about 1% of difference. The skill of the belayer makes up 99% of a "good catch".

Beth, the bottom line is you need better trained belayers. Jumping works but it's very hard to consistently get the timing right. Stepping back from the rock (whenever possible) with a moderate loop out, works every time with a light leader.

If your heavy belayer is 15' back from the wall, he should step forward when you say "Falling!" or he sees you falling. This gets him moving before you hit the end of the rope. He then allows himself to be drawn under the first draw by continuing to walk forward, (as opposed to bracing himself) perhaps even stepping up the wall a bit. It takes a bit of practice and planning, but it works beautifully.

According to the gear guy in rock and ice March 2019,  number 256, page 74, a soft catch and dynamic belay are bullshit 

other wrote: According to the gear guy in rock and ice March 2019,  number 256, page 74, a soft catch and dynamic belay are bullshit 

A 5 year old thread revived for this?

Also, it’s dumb that MP lets people thumbs-up their own posts. 

Cron wrote:

A 5 year old thread revived for this?

Also, it’s dumb that MP lets people thumbs-up their own posts. 

I was the one who thumbs him.

Anonymous wrote:

That's gross. 

I just thumb'd you and myself.

I clicked on this thread after I saw two threads about belaying right next each other. People keep starting new threads about belaying. The issue isn't "what's wrong with the world? Why do people think it's OK to give hard catches?" It's because climbing scares most people, and they panic and freeze whenever something exciting is about to happen. Most people simply can't handle the rigors of the activity. People like comfort and convenience. So whenever they find themselves in a demanding situation, without mental callous, they try to play it cool, but on the inside they're screaming "WTF WTF WTF, what's happening! This is scary!" They don't jump, you get a hard catch. And they'll continue to do it until they get educated. You discussed it with them, besides purging your frustration to us, right? 

John Byrnes wrote: There's also a time and place for both soft and hard catches... True. I get depressed when I see so many posters making unequivocal statements about belaying. As if there's only one way to do it, one device to use, etc. etc. The reality is: It Depends(tm). Is it a slab or overhanging? Good pro/bolts or three bad RP's in a row? Is the person gonna hit a ledge or the ground? Did they just pull over a roof? Will they pendulum? Did a hold break or is the person jumping off under control? There are a butt-load of variables. Each situation (every few feet along the route) can be unique and the belayer needs to dynamically adapt to each one. I will say this unequivocally: the equipment (Grigri vs. ATC, stretchy rope vs. not) makes about 1% of difference. The skill of the belayer makes up 99% of a "good catch". Beth, the bottom line is you need better trained belayers. Jumping works but it's very hard to consistently get the timing right. Stepping back from the rock (whenever possible) with a moderate loop out, works every time with a light leader. If your heavy belayer is 15' back from the wall, he should step forward when you say "Falling!" or he sees you falling. This gets him moving before you hit the end of the rope. He then allows himself to be drawn under the first draw by continuing to walk forward, (as opposed to bracing himself) perhaps even stepping up the wall a bit. It takes a bit of practice and planning, but it works beautifully.

Great post! One of the things people love about climbing, besides just getting a workout and enjoying the scenery and the friendships, is the constant thinking and judging that's involved. The belayer, while they can see their leader, should constantly be assessing the terrain around the leader, and the leader's fall protection. I love being a successful belayer, and am kinda hard on myself if I'm not on point and can think of a better outcome if I could've made a difference. If you can't see your leader, life's tough. I just saw a another new thread about a long leader fall, that was caused by someone venturing out away from the wall so they could see their leader around a roof. Please stop feeling bad because you can't see your leader! There are enough reasons for why you shouldn't walk away from the first quickdraw. If you don't know those reasons, stop belaying, watch the experienced folks, do your own research (practice doesn't replace education. You're gonna cause problems. You're gonna end MY, or my climbing veteran friends', climbing careers). Roped climbing is not a social activity. It's not a fad in popular culture. It's a skillset that's used for climbing enormous, deadly mountains. You need training to perform both roles. I've even given soft catches while top rope belaying to reduce pendulums. It's an art. 

David Gibbs wrote: Belaying is tricky... I got a super-light-catch today, ended up a fair bit lower than I expected. See, my belayer was about 50 lbs lighter than me, but he's used to belaying someone lighter, again, then him... and he jumped into the catch. I ended up a couple bolts down on something that wasn't closely bolted. Whee. :)

I ask my leaders how much they weigh. I look like I weigh 160, but I weigh a shade under 140. I get a lot of hard catches from inexperienced fuckers, even when I'm at the top of the route. 

redlude97 wrote: People love my belays because they get soft falls. I wish I could get the same. Just to harp on this one point. Just because the resulting catch you give is soft doesn't mean you have any better technique than your partners, you just happen to be on the right side of the physics equation when belaying. My female partners generally just lock up the gri sit down and prepare for the ride whenever I fall. If you reciprocated the same belay I would probably kill them. I definitely have to be more carefully and mindful of my belay technique when belaying them.

I've gotten slammed into walls from little ladies, because they think everyone's gonna yank them off the ground. Last hard catch I got from a little lady was in potrero Chico, going for the top anchor with a runout. I came off the route with significant air time, and wham! No rope drag. Experienced female. I was nearly in shock that she screwed that up. I expected better than that. Then she went off route, ripped off a hold, and I jumped when the rope pulled tight. I went for a silky smooth ride up the wall. 

I bring up good belay theory at the end of every climbing day with my partners on the drive back home. If you are consistent about talking things through on the actual climbs you just experienced, with the actual people you're relying on, then you will end up with a good group of belayer's who are aware of the high expectations everyone wants as a leader. Talking about weight differences, slab, vert, overhung, ledges, huecos, etc. Obviously once everyone is on the same page, you can take it easy on the way back, but talking every now and again is still a good idea.

Minimal slack, with a good bunny hop is the best way to give a great catch (when weight differences are minimal). Having more slack in the system is just going to generate more force, and have the leader fall further, and it certainly is not part of any "soft catch" equation, with one exception... I do like having an extra foot or so of slack than normal until the leader's waist is a couple of feet past a clip.

Short Beta wrote: If you can't competently lead belay with a Grigri, you shouldn't be climbing..

You had me until Grigri - its not the device, its the competence of the belayer.

Cron wrote:

A 5 year old thread revived for this?

Also, it’s dumb that MP lets people thumbs-up their own posts. 

It’s dumb that Mp doesn’t allow thumbs down on crons post. Why should their be a time limit on belaying threads? Is belaying obsolete per cron?

You could just get this guy to belay you