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SM Ryan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,090

chopsticktown

It might be easier to know if one of these programs work for you if you stated your goals , strengths, weaknesses.

For example if you are climbing 5.11 at the Red and want to climb 5.12A (name the climb) Then one of the training beta programs would work.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
SMR wrote:...if you are climbing 5.11 at the Red and want to climb 5.12A … get on Ro Shampo!
;-)
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

I've benefited from a couple of canned training programs -- i.e. everything planned out and scheduled for you.

They are great because they have the whole thing figured out. Not only do they provide a good single workout, but they also consider what you did the couple days before, and the couple weeks before that particular workout. So you don't risk doing too much adn getting injured. And you're also pushed to do a little more than you might normally do week after week.

Most of what I found about training online and in books was too general. For example, here is a hangboard workout. Or here are some exercises to do. Even Horst's books are really general, with schematic diagrams but no specific instructions (or even template programs).

To me the trainingbeta programs look good. Apparently, they are crafted by real-deal climbing training people with legitimate experience.

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
Mark E Dixon wrote: Since I hijacked your thread, I feel obligated to try to add something of value. I have worked with Kris Peters, he's a good trainer. I'm sure his program would be useful if you need more PE. Kris Hampton is from RRG and I'll bet he knows how to train for endurance. If you need to improve in either of these areas and follow their program, I'm pretty sure you will see improvements. However, there is no reason you can't figure out a program on your own. The Self Coached Climber is good, although I believe the Rock Climbers Training Manual is much better. Studying ether will give you the info you need to get started. On the other hand, if you don't want to deal with it and you just want someone to give you a program to follow, I'll bet these are both worthwhile. There's a sample training day from the PE plan posted on Neeley's site now. The podcasts are fun too, although I'm not sure I've learned any training secrets from them yet.
I actually got a lot out of Bechtel's podcast in terms of goal setting/how to go about the redpoint process. Anyway, I just checked out that PE training snippet and it basically just tells you to do some 4x4s. I don't really see the point in paying as much as that JUST for a PE cycle when you can get the whole thing, and likely better, from the Andersons
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

Why is it so important to be better than average? Why is it so important to progress quickly?

When I started climbing I just enjoyed it and I tried hard, same with most things I do. Progression came naturally without being focused on it. It wasn't until I started reading mags and watching movies that I realized I too should be climbing harder and longer routes and that if I was a badass it would be onsight. It was the loss of innocence. What started as something that I was passionate about transformed into something that I became obsessed with. I had learned the rules that others had established and I bought into them. I understood my place in the hierarchy of radness and I wanted to move up a bit, maybe even enough to impress the females.

I know the modern approach is through training but do all top level climbers train? I'm under the impression that people like Sharma or Graham don't train much, at least in the modern definition of training, stuctured Anderson style. Most sports I've been involved in train primarily through practice and throw in some weights or cardio for balance.

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

Graham and Sharma may not, but Woods, Caldwell, Ondra, and Usobiaga all do. There is nothing wrong with training for climbing. It doesn't have to be to impress anyone. Some people just enjoy making and then executing a long term plan to reach a new personal best. If you want to reach the potential that your body is capable of, you need some sort of structure to your training. If you want to just go out and climb and have fun, have at it! Just don't tell this poor guy he will get as strong by doing that as he would by taking a systematic approach to improving.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Ryan Williams wrote: You took that out of context. The "average" climber bails on their first wall. Like I said, if you want to be better than average, you need to train. I'm willing to bet that you either bailed on your first wall, or that you invested a lot of time in training and educating yourself before your first attempt and then topped out. Probably the latter, seeing as you took a year off to do nothing but climb. My point is/was that your comments about just climbing hard to get stronger are bogus. If I said "you don't need to train for the Nose, just climb a lot and then go and do it" you would call bullshit. So give your self some credit because I'm sure you trained for the walls. And admit that you DO value the benefit of training.
You do need to train but you don't need to spend $$$ to have someone tell you. It's not that complicated. I guess if you are the type who lacks motivation or is the yuppie type who needs everything formalized then there might be some value in spending $$$. But just use your brain.

I am 1 for 1 on the Nose. And Half Dome (RNWF) and a number of other harder more obscure walls. Never spent a penny on training beyond memberships to climbing and regular gyms.
Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143
Eric Engberg wrote: I am 1 for 1 on the Nose. And Half Dome (RNWF) and a number of other harder more obscure walls.
Aiding a trade route doesn't require much climbing skill, just rope gear placement and rope systems skills along with some general physical fitness. If you want to climb hard, you have two options:

1. Be genetically gifted

2. Train

There is also answer 3. Be both genetically gifted and committed to training, in which case you will set new standards and move the sport forward (see Caldwell, Ondra, Steck).
J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140
Ryan Watts wrote: You hear this a lot with climbing but I've always wondered how true it is. In every other sport I've been involved in, the best way to get better was *not* to just play said sport. That's not to say you can't get better that way, it's just not the most efficient (by a long shot, in most cases). Basketball teams do more than just play pick up basketball to get better. Runners do more than just "go out and run fast". I don't see why climbing would be any different. That said, personally I like just climbing, rather than suffering on a hang board, so I just climb a bunch and if I get better as a by product that's cool too. To each their own.
For the most part, basketball players and football and baseball players mostly play their sport to get better. Certainly some strength and endurance training is good for climbing, but the best thing you can do is climb. True of any sport.
Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143
J. Serpico wrote: For the most part, basketball players and football and baseball players mostly play their sport to get better.
This is simply not true. Basketball and football players practice aspects of their sport, using focused drills to train individual aspects of their game. There is very little unfocused scrimmaging at a practice for any team sport - most of the time is spent building skills relevant to the sport. Climbing is no different.
Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
Alexander Blum wrote: This is simply not true. Basketball and football players practice aspects of their sport, using focused drills to train individual aspects of their game. There is very little unfocused scrimmaging at a practice for any team sport - most of the time is spent building skills relevant to the sport. Climbing is no different.
Yep. I played both competitively and I would say that the problem with thinking that basketball/football players simply "play" is not properly understanding the correlation between certain activities there and certain climbing training activities - i.e. when I was a receiver, route work was similar to technique drills in climbing, weights was like hangboarding, various other drills probbaly correlate to campusing etc. The idea of training for climbing is that if you don't do a particular thing in isolation, it won't be trained the most effective way. In a pickup basketball game, you might take 8 shots, none of which is exactly perfect form etc., whereas doing shooting drills you can take hundreds of shots. Same thing.
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

Alexander,

So some top level climbers train and some don't but they achieve the same level? Is that to say that training is not necessary then? I believe the younger climbers train because that is the world they were brought up in, not out of necessity.

With zero training I've onsighted 12- trad, flashed 12d sport, and sent V9 boulders in under 15 tries. I never even used to boulder and in less than a year I climbed several V9s. Certainly not top level climbing but that was just weekend warrior status with a lot of drinking and partying in the mix. Could I have climbed harder with training, probably. Could I have climbed harder if I just climbed more, definitely.

One can live from the heart or the mind. If your focus is on training it's highly likely you are not climbing from the heart. So who cares what you do?

What about the negative effects of training? What happens when you reach a high level? Is there a lot of pressure to maintain that level? Is it upsetting when you start to decline? Can it even cause climbing to be a source of frustration? When you train you put a lot of importance on what you are doing. Truth is there are more important things we could focus on in life. Maybe the training is just more created distraction so you can continue to avoid taking an honest look at yourself.

Dan Austin · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0
MC Poopypants wrote:Alexander, So some top level climbers train and some don't but they achieve the same level? Is that to say that training is not necessary then? I believe the younger climbers train because that is the world they were brought up in, not out of necessity. With zero training I've onsighted 12- trad, flashed 12d sport, and sent V9 boulders in under 15 tries. I never even used to boulder and in less than a year I climbed several V9s. Certainly not top level climbing but that was just weekend warrior status with a lot of drinking and partying in the mix. Could I have climbed harder with training, probably. Could I have climbed harder if I just climbed more, definitely. One can live from the heart or the mind. If your focus is on training it's highly likely you are not climbing from the heart. So who cares what you do? What about the negative effects of training? What happens when you reach a high level? Is there a lot of pressure to maintain that level? Is it upsetting when you start to decline? Can it even cause climbing to be a source of frustration? When you train you put a lot of importance on what you are doing. Truth is there are more important things we could focus on in life. Maybe the training is just more created distraction so you can continue to avoid taking an honest look at yourself.
lol @ this guy
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Eric Engberg wrote: You do need to train but you don't need to spend $$$ to have someone tell you. It's not that complicated. I guess if you are the type who lacks motivation or is the yuppie type who needs everything formalized then there might be some value in spending $$$. But just use your brain. I am 1 for 1 on the Nose. And Half Dome (RNWF) and a number of other harder more obscure walls. Never spent a penny on training beyond memberships to climbing and regular gyms.
Well… yes and no. Some people (myself included) are lucky enough to have grown up in a family full of athletes. I spent most of my youth running track and cross country and playing baseball. So for me, it is easy to apply these same training principals to climbing. And yet, I still spent a little bit of money on the Self Coached Climber and 9 out of 10 Climbers...

Sure there are gimmick training programs out there, and there are likely A LOT more coming over the next few years. As climbing becomes more popular, more and more people will try to capitalise. But that doesn't mean that a good book isn't worth the measly $30 that it might cost for a brand new copy.
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
Jon Frisby wrote: Yep. I played both competitively and I would say that the problem with thinking that basketball/football players simply "play" is not properly understanding the correlation between certain activities there and certain climbing training activities - i.e. when I was a receiver, route work was similar to technique drills in climbing, weights was like hangboarding, various other drills probbaly correlate to campusing etc. The idea of training for climbing is that if you don't do a particular thing in isolation, it won't be trained the most effective way. In a pickup basketball game, you might take 8 shots, none of which is exactly perfect form etc., whereas doing shooting drills you can take hundreds of shots. Same thing.
This.

If you really think competitive basketball, football, etc. players just "play" during practice...idk what to tell you. You are wrong.

Whether that is applicable to climbing is up for debate.
jonathan.lipkin · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 70

If you want a canned program, you can try North Face's Mountain Athletics here:

thenorthface.com/en_US/moun…

I've downloaded and looked, but haven't tried it out yet.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Ryan Williams wrote: You took that out of context. The "average" climber bails on their first wall. Like I said, if you want to be better than average, you need to train. I'm willing to bet that you either bailed on your first wall, or that you invested a lot of time in training and educating yourself before your first attempt and then topped out. Probably the latter, seeing as you took a year off to do nothing but climb. My point is/was that your comments about just climbing hard to get stronger are bogus. If I said "you don't need to train for the Nose, just climb a lot and then go and do it" you would call bullshit. So give your self some credit because I'm sure you trained for the walls. And admit that you DO value the benefit of training.
Okay, I got you. And no I dident bail on my first wall, The Nose, I made it in 2.5 days. But as you said, I spent tons of time training for it. The impression I got from the OP's post was that he was new and was just looking to make it to average in the gym, cranking maybe 11s or 12s. In that case, I stand by my original comment that to climb average grades one does not an aggressive training program.

I know that proper training is required to do anything hard or complicated. However, I dont think one needs to pay a lot of money to do it. Around my parts we have a few triathlon training groups that charge some $175 a month to train. It sucks in all the noobs because they think they have to pay lots of money to train. All the training groups do are brick exercises with swimming, running and biking. You dont need to pay any money to do that, just like you dont need to join some club to train for climbing. All the info can be had from the Self Coached Climber, Google, and other climbers at the gym.
chopsticktown Moore · · Blandon, PA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 10
jonathan.lipkin wrote:If you want a canned program, you can try North Face's Mountain Athletics here: thenorthface.com/en_US/moun… I've downloaded and looked, but haven't tried it out yet.
This actually looks pretty cool.
By the way, I've been climbing for years. I never took training crazy serious and never kept motivated on a training program. I realized recently I wanted to train seriously to push myself physically and mentally and thought I would ask the fine folks here if they had success with this particular program. I have books on training and visit websites on training. I guess I was trying to ask how this program stacked up against other training programs people have tried.
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10
chopsticktown wrote: trying to ask how this program stacked up against other training programs people have tried.
traingbeta.com looks good to me. Likely better than the Mountain Athlete one I tried--that was my first foray into "training" where I did 4x4's, hangboard, timed climbing etc. It actually helped a lot. Mountain athlete used to post a workout every day, and you got access to past workouts. I liked that format. Now they give you a pdf with a 6-week training program, and I don't like the new product as much. Still fine, but I liked the earlier style better.

mountainathlete.com/

My opinion: getting a canned program was really time efficient.

Didn't injure myself by binge training. Getting injured is really inefficient. So I felt I could push it through the program without major risk of injury.

What else is out there for canned programs? The north face one looks cool.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
JohnnyG wrote: What else is out there for canned programs?
You could check out Steve Bechtel's site for totally canned workouts. climbstrong.com

And I still think the Anderson's book (The Rock Climber's Training Manual rockclimberstrainingmanual.com) is the best out right now. They give several training plans, day by day for 4 months or so. Not quite at the detail of "do two sets of campus ladders, rest 5 minutes, then..." but pretty close. Plus great info on training physiology, redpoint strategy, skill acquisition, etc.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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