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Wandering route with half/double ropes

Original Post
K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

Last weekend I was leading a multipitch on double/half ropes and then bringing up a couple seconds at once in guide mode. One would climb 20 ft ahead of the other. Usually the first second would clean because she was experienced at cleaning, but on this pitch we needed to keep the pieces in until the last climber because he needed the pieces to protect swings. If you look at the route picture, there are a few distinct sections of rock labelled 1, 2, and 3. Blue Xs are places where there definitely needs to be pro, and section 2 was long enough that I placed additional pieces. I was clipping both ropes into the directional pieces because I wanted both climbers to be protected from the swing. For the rest of the pieces, I clipped left or right based on what side of the climb I felt the piece was on (or every other if I couldn't tell). I ended up needing to extend the piece between section 1 and 2 double length, and I extended the piece between 2 and 3 triple length. At first I had extended the bottom one single length and the top one double length. Without the greater extension, the rope drag was a no-go. I actually had to downclimb to fix it, so it was a big issue. Is there a way I could have used the doubles in order to have avoided such massive extension? I'm thinking maybe the rope drag would have been better if I clipped only the first second's rope in and had her clip the last climber's rope in as she passes the piece and unclips. Also, I think clipping both ropes was causing the ropes to twist around each other in a spiral, so that may have been another factor in the rope drag--and potentially another downside to clipping both.

Photo shows a climb thru a passage (section 1), turn 90 degrees left and climb up a crack on a spire to a false summit (section 2), and turn 90 degrees right where you step over a chasm onto the real summit (section 3).

Route Topo

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Break it up into two pitches?

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

FrankPS, breaking it up into another pitch would have been better than downclimbing in retrospect. However it's avoidable in the first place by extending. What I'm hoping to learn is if there's a better way to use double ropes to avoid the problem in the first place. I understand doubles are generally a good thing for rope drag.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Pontoon wrote:FrankPS, breaking it up into another pitch would have been better than downclimbing in retrospect. However it's avoidable in the first place by extending. What I'm hoping to learn is if there's a better way to use double ropes to avoid the problem in the first place. I understand doubles are generally a good thing for rope drag.
Doubles are better for reducing rope drag - for a party of two.

Edit: When you clip both ropes into a single piece to protect both followers against a swing, you are going back to "twins" mode, which inherently prevents you from "straightening out the route" as you would with doubles.

Maybe there's a way around this, but don't know what it is.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2

If you were using doubles in the usual way, with only one follower, the way you avoid rope drag for something like this is you only clip one rope into the 1-2 transition piece, and clip the other rope into the 2-3 transition piece, so neither rope does the zig-zag.

But, since you were protecting for two followers, you can't do that. So, you needed to treat it like a single, or twin, rope situation and extend the pieces at the turning points. Or, of course, break it up into a pair of pitches at some point.

Ryan Hill · · Denver, CO · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 30
Pontoon wrote:FrankPS, breaking it up into another pitch would have been better than downclimbing in retrospect. However it's avoidable in the first place by extending. What I'm hoping to learn is if there's a better way to use double ropes to avoid the problem in the first place. I understand doubles are generally a good thing for rope drag.
One of the things I learned early on in guiding is that it is often better (ie. faster and safer) to shorten wandering and long pitches when climbing with inexperienced climbers. It was a new concept for me, however I found that everyone had a much better experience when I shortened pitches like the one you just described so that there was minimal rope drag and traverses were protected. It also made it so that communication between myself and my students/clients was clear and consistent.

I'd say that the answer to your question is splitting the pitch into two. Anything else seems so situation and climber dependent that speculation seems silly.
K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

Thanks, so basically the key takeaways are: clip both ropes to protect both followers and don't have the first second reclip for the other second. It makes sense since one rope (the first second's) would have to make the zigzag shape in any case. So if I'm belaying two followers, I have to remember it's going to drag like a normal rope and either extend like crazy or split pitches.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Pontoon wrote:Thanks, so basically the key takeaways are: clip both ropes to protect both followers and don't have the first second reclip for the other second. It makes sense since one rope (the first second's) would have to make the zigzag shape in any case. So if I'm belaying two followers, I have to remember it's going to drag like a normal rope and either extend like crazy or split pitches.
The first follower should leave the next follower's rope clipped, right? At the piece protecting against the pendulum, anyway.
Kevin Neville · · Oconomowoc, WI · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 15

Clip one rope through the 1-2 transition. Use the other for 2 and the 2-3 transition, just as if you only had one follower. First follower comes up on the second rope and, after the 1-2 transition, attaches the first rope to his harness on a fairly long sling. Climbs up to the 2-3 transition, hauls in the first rope and clips it to the pieces there. Now the third climber is protected.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

^^^ this.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
kevin neville wrote:Clip one rope through the 1-2 transition. Use the other for 2 and the 2-3 transition, just as if you only had one follower. First follower comes up on the second rope and, after the 1-2 transition, attaches the first rope to his harness on a fairly long sling. Climbs up to the 2-3 transition, hauls in the first rope and clips it to the pieces there. Now the third climber is protected.
In this scenario, are the two followers climbing at the same time, 20 feet apart? Sounds like the followers are climbing in succession, not simultaneously.
K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

FrankPS what I meant is that I do the clipping of both ropes into the transition pieces, not leaving the 2nd second's rope unclipped and having the 1st second clip it as she passes.

I still need to noodle on what kevin neville said. Don't fully understand yet.

Kevin Neville · · Oconomowoc, WI · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 15
FrankPS wrote: In this scenario, are the two followers climbing at the same time, 20 feet apart? Sounds like the followers are climbing in succession, not simultaneously.
They might start simultaneously, but the third climber would have to wait at the 1-2 transition until the second climber had clipped his rope through the gear at the 2-3 transition.

General point is that the leader should use the ropes to protect himself and the second climber without too much rope drag, but needn't worry too much about protecting the third. The second climber can adjust the third's rope as needed.
K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

In this scenario I still have to make the rope for the 1st second do the Z shape in order to have the 1st second protected the whole way. Correct? Won't this cause the same amount of rope drag as before? Or is it less rope drag because I don't clip both ropes thru the 1-2 transition and the 2-3 transition?

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

As others have said, you were not really climbing double rope style, but single rope style with two seconds. You mentioned that the drag might have come from the ropes twisting around each other. So, was the drag worse than it might have been with a single? If so, you need to stop the ropes twisting by clipping them into different length extenders at the corners.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

Maybe I spun in a circle... Just realized that would probably twist the ropes up wouldn't it? The twist was what I thought the problem was, so I actually untied from one rope and retied it while on a ledge, but after fixing it, while it may have been somewhat better, the real issue was the 90 degree bends and the greater extension in the pieces fixed the issue.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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