Rediculous OR article on Women climbers,

mediocre wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that you can write a "2 page response devoid of any substance."

ZING!!

mediocre wrote:You obviously recognize the quotes and realize you were wrong.

Sigh. I sure do. Keep on being right then.

Boissal wrote: Sigh. I sure do. Keep on being right then.

Here's a first on MP, why don't we just agree to disagree? I'm out of beer, the rain has stopped and I'm tired of defending a shitty article to begin with. My original point was that the OP put too much thought and energy into interpreting this article, and now I have done the same.

mediocre wrote: Here's a first on MP, why don't we just agree to disagree? I'm out of beer, the rain has stopped and I'm tired of defending a shitty article to begin with. My original point was that the OP put too much thought and energy into interpreting this article, and now I have done the same.

It rained all over Colorado. I still have beer left though...

Regardless, the Sterling comparison is accurate to the extent that it is another example of a PC culture kind of missing the point,. I never intended it to be a 1:1 comparison.

That all aside, way to go Mountain Proj, so far, this whole thread has shocked me with it's legitimacy and lack of trolling. Well done ya'll.

Except for e lesbian joke... I get what you were trying to do, but you struck out a bit on that pitch.

This instructional video will help loosen this thread up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqymyyZ1jY&list=PLUOsmAhu6av_sk-fIn-nLz8x2QT3LGdI_

Here is another video with some great advice on how to avoid storing stress in your hips.

youtube.com/watch?v=GF82jzP…

I read this article yesterday and it really got under my skin. Parading in tutus and announcing 'fairies on the wall' is indeed ridiculous. I don't understand how being obnoxious is confused with female empowerment.

As a female climber in the frequent company of men, I have never experienced any kind of gender discrimination outdoors. On a rare occasion--in the gym--a new male climber will act like a typical macho jerk but that is before he has figured out that the climbing gym is not the weight room at his local Gold's Gym. It's an even playing field. For the author of this pointless article to imply that there is systemic gender discrimination really annoys me.

More often than not, men have asked if I wanted the first lead or the hard pitch. Not because I'm a female, or in spite of it, but because we're equal partners and it's a nice thing to do. Keep being awesome, guys!

I agree that the author of the article was projecting an attitude on the man who offered to leave up a rope, but I don't think her single sentence ( Boys. Sometimes they think that we women don’t know our way on the rock or in the mountains without them.) means that she is experiencing "some incredibly taboo insult to her proficiency as a climber due to her gender".

That said, I've climbed with men for twenty years and I've always found them to be great, supportive, encouraging partners. For me, climbing with women has been a different experience in part because by the time I had moved on from my primary male climbing partners I had become competent. I was "the rope gun". As a woman who climbs with women I feel I have the opportunity to be a mentor, and I don't quite feel that way even with less experienced men.

Re: the article, I find the idea of dressing up as a group in tutus and matching tights bothersome. As a female climber I don't feel like I need to make a big point of my femaleness. I don't need to emphasize it. I am what I am, and that may have more to do with "me" than with "my gender". I have never attended a Chicks With Picks clinic, but I've shared ice climbing clinic teaching duties with someone who had, and apparently they had this little ritual of sprinkling glitter on the attendees--why? I can only guess that it was to emphasize that they were still feminine even though they were ice climbing? I don't know why that's necessary.

Kiri Namtvedt wrote:As a female climber I don't feel like I need to make a big point of my femaleness. I don't need to emphasize it. I am what I am, and that may have more to do with "me" than with "my gender". I have never attended a Chicks With Picks clinic, but I've shared ice climbing clinic teaching duties with someone who had, and apparently they had this little ritual of sprinkling glitter on the attendees--why? I can only guess that it was to emphasize that they were still feminine even though they were ice climbing? I don't know why that's necessary.

Totally agree. I can understand female-only clinics as a way to address gender specific strengths and weaknesses but why do they need to make it about femininity? I've never seen a women's soccer or basketball team do that before they play. It simply has nothing to do with the sport.

Are we still talking about political correctness? I can't stop watching those videos... heh heh heh

For what it's worth, I regularly climb with mixed gender groups and we always offer our topropes to other groups of climbers. Why not offer someone the opportunity to jump on something already set up ... And for the record, I've never once encountered any kind of gender discrimination. The author of the article is just being hyper-sensitive, in my opinion. How sad that in this day and age, a simple and thoughtful gesture such as the offer of a toprope would be offensive to someone...

She needs to loosen up, have more fun and not take herself so seriously.

Pam Peery wrote:She needs to loosen up, have more fun and not take herself so seriously.

I think for once this is actually the appropriate response (which is not to say I agree with any aspect of OP's original post). Women do, as we all know, face systematic discrimination in many areas of their lives, but I am not sure climbing is one of them. I'm not even sure what systematic discrimination would look like for climbers. Do men receive a disproportionate ratio of the sponsorships, guiding jobs, and expedition grants? Do climbing gear designers and manufacturers ignore women? (that's a I-don't-think-so-but-I'm-not-really-sure and a definite no)

Note, however, that discrimination and misogyny are not the same. There is a great deal of misogyny in climbing culture, and that's what bugged me personally about Kunz's article. She spent the whole time whining about perceived slights instead of talking about the very real issues that we face.
If anyone is interested I wrote a piece on this topic a couple months ago
Masculinity and Misogyny in Climbing

Pam Peery wrote:For what it's worth, I regularly climb with mixed gender groups and we always offer our topropes to other groups of climbers. Why not offer someone the opportunity to jump on something already set up ...

I love hopping on other group's topropes. It gets me another route in for my daily total. It's never feels like an insult when offered. Just the other day we mixed in our group with some couples and there were shared topropes, pulled ropes so other could lead, you name it. Every possible combination of rope fuckery. I don't think one person male or female was offended.

Thanks for posting the link to your article, Jacob; I really enjoyed it!

I've climbed with most of these women before as a group and the leaders are strong, experienced climbers. It was actually supposed to be a ladies' day but I happened to be in squamish with another lady so I used my ponytail to sneak in, and they were very cool with me. The author in particular is a wonderfully warm and kind person and far from easy to offend.

I read the article more as "Hey, we didn't take ourselves too seriously and had a great time together as a group of women" and as Kiri pointed out, the one sentence about silly boys might indicate a projection but is to me at most a side note to the article. I'd love to see more climbers get out in costume and focus on the fun, taking themselves less seriously while celebrating their companionship, while of course staying safe.

Andy

I'm no Robin Williams to this lady's Matt Damon but it seems like the author may be projecting some of her own feelings regarding the strength of female climbers onto those around her. I got out of the article that she is insulted when people ask things like "you ladies climbing out here alone?" and wishes to be viewed as a climber and not a woman climber. "Boys. Sometimes they think that we women don’t know our way on the rock or in the mountains without them."

But then she has statements about how climbing with other women "forced me to be more prepared and required more leadership". What I get out of this statement is that it is her own personal feeling that women are not as strong in the mountains and on rock as men. If this were not the case then why would she feel like she needs to be more prepared with a party of females than with a party of males? She makes no note of feeling the need to be more prepared because her partners were new to climbing or lacked back-country experience. She only notes that they were women. Seems like she has her own feelings confused for the feelings of others.

I climb with some seriously gnarly girls who put up lines and rope gun routes for men in the group and I still ask them "do you want me to leave this up?" It is just common courtesy. The hardest climbers I know will TR something at the end of the day top get in that last quick burn.

NC Rock Climber wrote:This is going to be awesome. To get everyone in the right frame of mind, first enjoy this video. youtube.com/watch?v=_Vnwmpb…

that was awesome...

It's nice to see women actually thoughtfully discussing this in this thread. And doing so despite the mysogynistic video postings that crop up all over the internet as the best evidence available that most men are still intellectually stunted at the B&B stage (I think it was Freud who first identified the Beavis and Butthead stage of human development).

In the "adventure sports' or "gravity sports" fields, and internet BB's devoted to them, these threads almost inevitably devolve into a bunch of men talking about how there is no bigotry out there in the real world, because they have never personally experienced it. As if men not experiencing sexism (or whites not experiencing racism) was somehow relevant.

What does not look like chauvinism to us guys, may be perceived differently by women who do have a different set of experiences in modern, American culture. As a guy who tries to do the right thing, it is reassuring to hear women say that offering another climber the use of an established TR is not an inherently bad thing to do. It's also nice to be reassured that sometimes when we are just trying to be nice, others understand that we are just trying to be nice.

Having observed a ridiculous amount of male chauvinism, in a ridiculous number of places where it should never occur, I'm inclined to cut women a LOT of slack if they take offense to something that men might view differently.

Jacob Smith wrote: I think for once this is actually the appropriate response (which is not to say I agree with any aspect of OP's original post). Women do, as we all know, face systematic discrimination in many areas of their lives, but I am not sure climbing is one of them. I'm not even sure what systematic discrimination would look like for climbers. Do men receive a disproportionate ratio of the sponsorships, guiding jobs, and expedition grants? Do climbing gear designers and manufacturers ignore women? (that's a I-don't-think-so-but-I'm-not-really-sure and a definite no) Note, however, that discrimination and misogyny are not the same. There is a great deal of misogyny in climbing culture, and that's what bugged me personally about Kunz's article. She spent the whole time whining about perceived slights instead of talking about the very real issues that we face. If anyone is interested I wrote a piece on this topic a couple months ago Masculinity and Misogyny in Climbing

You don't agree with any aspect of my post? Except for the whole agreeing with my main idea.

Way to pimp your website bro, what literary journals have you been published in? I'm absolutely dying to know.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: Way to pimp your website bro, what literary journals have you been published in? I'm absolutely dying to know.

Shit, you got me! Forget literary journals, I was really hoping this would finally get my summitpost power rating over 200!

And aside from not being impressed with Kunz's article, I do actually disagree with almost everything you said. If you'd like a point-by-point breakdown I can probably throw one together, but right now I need to get back to pimping my website, bro.

"This is why women don't get respect, because they act like idiots..."

Quote from my wife, Susanne.

Jacob Smith wrote: Shit, you got me! Forget literary journals, I was really hoping this would finally get my summitpost power rating over 200! And aside from not being impressed with Kunz's article, I do actually disagree with almost everything you said. If you'd like a point-by-point breakdown I can probably throw one together, but right now I need to get back to pimping my website, bro.

That's unfortunate, I ocassinally have trouble sleeping. Your breakdown could have helped a great, great deal.