1st Big Wall with Guide or Buy a Portaledge?
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csproul wrote: Huh? LOL a portaledge is common on all those 5.10 climbs!Point was... a ledge is far less useful to a guy who leads 5.7... than to one who's comfortable at 5.10+. Is it not common for the grade V climber at that level to own or partner with someone with a ledge? |
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csproul wrote: Where are all these 5.8-5.10 "bigwalls" that require a ledge?Making my point... You tell me? I wrote that a portaledge could be helpful at those grades, nothing about being required. The requirement was a qualification for purchase having nothing to do with the grades mentioned in the following sentence. |
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Craig Childre wrote: Point was... a ledge is far less useful to a guy who leads 5.7... than to one who's comfortable at 5.10+. Is it not common for the grade V climber at that level to own or partner with someone with a ledge?Most of your advice is pretty good, but your wording on that post was a lot misleading. A new climber breaking into 5.8 and 5.9 will not find a ledge useful, and in the 10's a ledge is still not "fairly common". Hell, even most intro big wall climbers don't even have a strong need for a ledge and I'd doubt that the majority of people who have climbed a grade V route own a ledge...ie not common. I don't think I'd say that a ledge is more or less useful to someone who climbs 5.7 or to someone who climbs 5.10. I'd say that a ledge is useful to someone who is climbing a bigwall that does not have natural ledges. Period. Whether that climb has mandatory 5.7 climbing or 5.10 climbing is pretty immaterial, and I'm sure we could come up with lots of examples of bigwalls that require a ledge AND have sub-5.10 mandatory free climbing. It is true that being a stronger free climber can only help your bigwall game and potentially help you get on more climbs that might require a ledge. The other point is that there are a lot of big wall routes, especially the entry-level type, that do not require a ledge. Here is a list copied from Whitemeat on Supertopo (Yosemite-centric obviously, I can't say much about Zion, although my impression is that there are also plenty of intro routes there that do not require a ledge): washingtons collumn: south face skull queen southern man south central Half dome: RNWF (regular route) El Capitan: the nose the salethe lurking fear zodiac (ledge above black tower and peanut) Leaning tower: West face (regular route) wet denim daydream Mount watkins: south face (regular route) |
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I'm kind of being pedantic and busting your balls a little, but here is a list of sub 5.10 routes for which Supertopo says that a portaledge IS useful (no personal experience with these routes, just relaying what is written in ST): |
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I have done a few of those routes on the no portaledge list and can give you a bit of insight on what it will take to climb it without one. |
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The main issue with the 5.7-5.10 needing a ledge is that the YDS climbing grade (5.x) isn't as important for speed as the aid climbing grade (Ax). This is important because Portaledges are more important the slower you climb. No matter how how fast you can multipitch 5.8s and 5.9s, A2 or C2 will stop the new aid climber cold. All of a sudden your 20 minutes to freeclimb lead a 5.7 pitch becomes an hour or three to climb 5.7 C2 or 5.7 A2 |
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Oh and to comment on the above posts very few walls on the captain have mandatory freeclimbing that is harder than 5.9 so while you should be solid and fast on 5.9 trad climbs you dont need to climb 5.11 to get up most walls |
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Mydans wrote:Oh and to comment on the above posts very few walls on the captain have mandatory freeclimbing that is harder than 5.9 so while you should be solid and fast on 5.9 trad climbs you dont need to climb 5.11 to get up most wallsI'd take that a step farther and say that if your goal is to be able to free 5.9 on a big wall, you'd want to be solid at 5.10 freeclimbing since the extra weight, fatigue, and exposure will make things feel harder. |
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Mark Hudon wrote:Lots of good, honest comments so far, Leonard. imho getting guided up a wall is going to be nothing like doing a wall with a partner. With a partner is tougher, but, again imho, so much more rewarding.Thanks Mark - totally agreed...best thing is I got out to a local bolt ladder with a fellow Mountain Projecter (Todd K)...belayed and cleaned Aid for the first time! Had a blast and am stoked to learn more...my list of gear to purchase is growing quickly...and list of gear I wish I would have waited on purchasing...and then not purchased...is growing as well.
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Craig Childre wrote:Suggest you dump the heavy Gri Gri and get a mega Jul! You will probably want way more gear too! 20 -40 additional biners 4-6 additional lockers a set of offset nuts a set of brass micro nuts a set of offset X-4's or Alien type offset Maybe a few, or a set of C-3's Pro Traxion Aiders daisy chains grappling hook or cliff hanger fifi hook rurp set of pitons set of peckers a couple more alpine draws List is only a suggestion to fill in gaps that I think your rack has... very least, this is most of what I would acquire before thinking about a ledge or guide service.Schweet on the List Craig! More gear on the way - 24 additional camp photon wires - Yates Adjustable Daisy's - Micro-Traxion - Alpine Draws ...I can see spending some serious coin over the next few months/years on this stuff. May have to start selling my kids toys and wife's jewelry to afford it! |
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Great info, thanks for this topic. |
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csproul wrote: Except, if you were to climb a wall with a guide, I doubt any of them would let you lead, so you'd get no practice leading and no practice hauling. You'd get to jug, clean, and belay. Not totally useless, but I wouldn't pay a guide for that.I know guides that would take a client up a grade V or VI and let them lead every pitch if they wanted and were ready. I supposed it depends on the guide. "Independent" guides are probably more likely to allow this sort of things. |
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Having been in and around the guiding community for a decade I would be surprised to find a guide who would let a client lead on a big wall. I have only had clients lead a couple times and it was terrifying because when you hand the client the rack you lose most of your control of the risk. Also you should be aware that in national parks like Yosemite or Zion there is a very strict permitting process about who is even allowed to guide there. As far as I know the Yosemite Mountaineering school is the only company that is permitted to guide in the valley and on el cap, and out of their guides their are only a handful that guide walls, (like Scott Stowe and Aaron Jones) I have seen them guiding routes like the nose and not only are the clients not leading but they belay the clients as they jug to reduce the risk of a fall. If you do choose to go with a non permitted guide you may get to lead but if something goes wrong they wont have any insurance (even if the guide claims to have insurance the company won't pay if the guide is working without a permit) and if you get caught by NPS (which is unlikely unless you need help/rescue you will both be likely to be fined for violating NPS rules) My 2 cents is that you should learn the skills and climb with a partner because as Hudon said it will be harder but much more rewarding. |
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Mydans wrote: they wont have any insurance (even if the guide claims to have insurance the company won't pay if the guide is working without a permit) So? If he went the partner route, would his partner have insurance if something went wrong? No. Also, I am pretty sure the insurance guides have are to cover their asses if the client sues them, not to cover the client. I dont know any guiding company that has insurance specifically to help the client, although it may exist. Mydans wrote: and if you get caught by NPS (which is unlikely unless you need help/rescue you will both be likely to be fined for violating NPS rules) Which would only happen if the OP or his guide was dumb enough to say they were guiding, which is pretty stupid. The chances of them getting caught are right around 0% if they use their brain. I am not advocating he uses a rogue guide, or any guide for that matter, but I do think the monopoly that some guiding companies like YMS have is complete bullshit. |
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Mydans wrote: |
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Mydans wrote:I bet you can spot who is a noob versus who is a veteran at the crag and most people don't climb walls with a noob unless they are getting paid.In my experience, more than half of the wall teams I see in yosemite are composed of a ropegun and a noob as the subman. Usually a bad choice because people underestimate how difficult it is to clean an aid pitch for someone who doesn't have experience with it. |
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There are plenty of Paid hiking group leaders guiding. Difference is they are paid outside the park and are organized as groups. Nobody seems to care about them. Maybe the "donation" to the guide should be outside park lands........maybe a stupid argument, but only on my first cup of coffee |
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Actually most climbing rangers are a lot better than you think at recognizing guided groups if they run into them. Its generally quite obvious when you have one climber who is much more experienced than the other. I bet you can spot who is a noob versus who is a verteran at the crag and most people don't climb walls with a noob unless they are getting paid. |
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Leonard, |
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I haven't read all the replies, so perhaps someone has already said these things, but I'd just pick an easy wall that already has ledges on it (West Face of Leaning Tower in Yosemite) and go for it. Or, if in Zion, fix a bunch of pitches one day, figure out your systems, and then finish the route on a subsequent day. You sound like you have more than enough experience to figure stuff out on your on (at least you have way more experience than I did when I did my first few walls). On the other hand, I remember my buddy Scott gave me a few hours instruction in jugging and leading aid, and I had a few folks take me under their wing in other ways... sort of. Really though, for the most part my buddies just set me off into the wild. But having that confident person who believe in me below somehow helped. Guided instruction could definitely be helpful. However, I've always opted for saving the money for other things. |