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1st Big Wall with Guide or Buy a Portaledge?

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
csproul wrote: Huh? LOL a portaledge is common on all those 5.10 climbs!
Point was... a ledge is far less useful to a guy who leads 5.7... than to one who's comfortable at 5.10+. Is it not common for the grade V climber at that level to own or partner with someone with a ledge?
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
csproul wrote: Where are all these 5.8-5.10 "bigwalls" that require a ledge?
Making my point... You tell me? I wrote that a portaledge could be helpful at those grades, nothing about being required. The requirement was a qualification for purchase having nothing to do with the grades mentioned in the following sentence.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Craig Childre wrote: Point was... a ledge is far less useful to a guy who leads 5.7... than to one who's comfortable at 5.10+. Is it not common for the grade V climber at that level to own or partner with someone with a ledge?
Most of your advice is pretty good, but your wording on that post was a lot misleading. A new climber breaking into 5.8 and 5.9 will not find a ledge useful, and in the 10's a ledge is still not "fairly common". Hell, even most intro big wall climbers don't even have a strong need for a ledge and I'd doubt that the majority of people who have climbed a grade V route own a ledge...ie not common.

I don't think I'd say that a ledge is more or less useful to someone who climbs 5.7 or to someone who climbs 5.10. I'd say that a ledge is useful to someone who is climbing a bigwall that does not have natural ledges. Period. Whether that climb has mandatory 5.7 climbing or 5.10 climbing is pretty immaterial, and I'm sure we could come up with lots of examples of bigwalls that require a ledge AND have sub-5.10 mandatory free climbing. It is true that being a stronger free climber can only help your bigwall game and potentially help you get on more climbs that might require a ledge.

The other point is that there are a lot of big wall routes, especially the entry-level type, that do not require a ledge. Here is a list copied from Whitemeat on Supertopo (Yosemite-centric obviously, I can't say much about Zion, although my impression is that there are also plenty of intro routes there that do not require a ledge):

washingtons collumn:
south face
skull queen
southern man
south central

Half dome:
RNWF (regular route)

El Capitan:
the nose
the salethe
lurking fear
zodiac (ledge above black tower and peanut)

Leaning tower:
West face (regular route)
wet denim daydream

Mount watkins:
south face (regular route)
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

I'm kind of being pedantic and busting your balls a little, but here is a list of sub 5.10 routes for which Supertopo says that a portaledge IS useful (no personal experience with these routes, just relaying what is written in ST):

Lurking Fear (5.7 C2F): Supertopo quote "most parties bring a portaledge"
West Butress (5.9 A3) "bring a portaledge"
Aquarian Wall (5.7 C3F) can be done without if you are fast
Dihedral Wall (5.8 C3F) only 2 good bivy ledges but requires most parties 3-5 nights
Cosmos (5.7 A4) no bivy ledges until high on the route
Excalibur (5.9 A3) you want a portaledge
Flight of the Albatross (5.8 A4)
Miur Wall (5.9 A2)
Wall of Early Morning Light (5.9 A3)
South Seas (5.8 A4)
Sea of Dreams (5.9 A4)
Wyoming Sheep Ranch (5.8 A4)
Atlantic Ocean Wall (5.9 A4)
Iron Hawk (5.9 A4)
Native Son (5.9 A4)
Aurora (5.7 A4)
Tangerine Trip (5.7 A2)
Zenyatta Mondatta (5.7 A4)
Shortest Straw (5.7 A4)
Zodiac (5.7 C3F OR A2)

The Re-Animator (5.8 A3)

West Face or Wet Denim Daydream on Leaning Tower (bring a portaledge if you plan on spending more than two days or if you anticipate crowds on Ahwahnee Ledge)

Being a better free climber will, of course, only help your ability to climb aid walls more efficiently. But your free climbing ability is not what determines whether or not you need a ledge. A portaledge is not "helpful to a climber getting into those grades (5.8, 5.9, or 5.10)". It is virtually useless to a climber getting into those grades, unless they have all the other skills important to getting them up a bigwall. IT IS useful to a climber capable of climbing bigwalls with no natural ledges, and there are plenty of examples where these routes do not require 5.10+ free climbing.

Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

I have done a few of those routes on the no portaledge list and can give you a bit of insight on what it will take to climb it without one.

Nose- definitely no portaledge needed as there are a variety of places to sleep, sickle, dolt, el cap tower, camp 4 and 5 kinda suck to bivy at and camp 6 is quite good but often smelly. we had a ledge and were psyched to have it because they are more comfortable but you don't need it. With that in mind if you are sitting in the meadow and the nose is swarming with people then you can also assume that the bivies will be crowded so make sure the route is somewhat clear before you commit to it without a ledge.

west face of leaning tower- awahnee ledge is a sick place to bivy but is only comfortable with a couple people, we were lucky and had it to ourselves

Lurking fear-while there are a couple of ledges you will have to climb really fast on the lower section to go from ledge to ledge. we fixed to the top of 3 and then blasted but the next usable ledge is at the top of 9 or 10 which means you would need to jug haul and then climb 6 or 7 pitches to get to the ledge. This is very unlikely if you're new to big walls. I have done 11 walls and never done more than 6 in a day so while there is a ledge you might not make it there and have to climb into the night. After that there are good ledges at 14 and 17(thanksgiving) so no biggie after that.

zodiac- this is more unlikely than lurking fear. the ledge at the top of 6 is pretty small and then you would need to climb 7 pitches the following day to make it to peanut and those are some of the harder pitches on the route (the whole white circle including the nipple and mark of zoro) so climbing in the dark is likely again.

I haven't done the salathe but most people don't take a ledge on that one.

all the routes on the column are fine without a ledge but you probably want to fix above dinner ledge to get a head start.

good luck!! and have fun

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

The main issue with the 5.7-5.10 needing a ledge is that the YDS climbing grade (5.x) isn't as important for speed as the aid climbing grade (Ax). This is important because Portaledges are more important the slower you climb. No matter how how fast you can multipitch 5.8s and 5.9s, A2 or C2 will stop the new aid climber cold. All of a sudden your 20 minutes to freeclimb lead a 5.7 pitch becomes an hour or three to climb 5.7 C2 or 5.7 A2

If you're just starting out, don't bother with a ledge. Climb the routes that are majority freeclimbing with a good amount of aid inbetween. There's plenty of C1 climbs like this with ledges so you can make sure you actually want to do this.

I aid climb and bigwall almost exclusively. I LOVE aid climbing but don't for a moment think that bigwall climbing is anything but type2 fun. In fact, the approach sucks, the cost of gear sucks, the hauling sucks, the boredom when belaying your partner sucks, the mind numbing fear when you're leading an aid pitch a grade above what you're used to (C2 at first, then C3) sucks. Descending sucks. The three days to recover from the route sucks. But don't let that discourage you. I've grown as a climber and a person more Bigwalling than I ever have freeclimbing.

Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

Oh and to comment on the above posts very few walls on the captain have mandatory freeclimbing that is harder than 5.9 so while you should be solid and fast on 5.9 trad climbs you dont need to climb 5.11 to get up most walls

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Mydans wrote:Oh and to comment on the above posts very few walls on the captain have mandatory freeclimbing that is harder than 5.9 so while you should be solid and fast on 5.9 trad climbs you dont need to climb 5.11 to get up most walls
I'd take that a step farther and say that if your goal is to be able to free 5.9 on a big wall, you'd want to be solid at 5.10 freeclimbing since the extra weight, fatigue, and exposure will make things feel harder.
Leonard Z · · Mesa AZ · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 170
Mark Hudon wrote:Lots of good, honest comments so far, Leonard. imho getting guided up a wall is going to be nothing like doing a wall with a partner. With a partner is tougher, but, again imho, so much more rewarding.
Thanks Mark - totally agreed...best thing is I got out to a local bolt ladder with a fellow Mountain Projecter (Todd K)...belayed and cleaned Aid for the first time! Had a blast and am stoked to learn more...my list of gear to purchase is growing quickly...and list of gear I wish I would have waited on purchasing...and then not purchased...is growing as well.

  • ** Thanks for all the advice guys! I am loosing serious sleep reading Pass the Pitons Pete posts, SuperTopo Videos, MP Forums...but actually getting out and putting some things together was great. Also realized very quickly that I have a phreaking long way to go...lots of learning and doing ahead of me.
Leonard Z · · Mesa AZ · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 170
Craig Childre wrote:Suggest you dump the heavy Gri Gri and get a mega Jul! You will probably want way more gear too! 20 -40 additional biners 4-6 additional lockers a set of offset nuts a set of brass micro nuts a set of offset X-4's or Alien type offset Maybe a few, or a set of C-3's Pro Traxion Aiders daisy chains grappling hook or cliff hanger fifi hook rurp set of pitons set of peckers a couple more alpine draws List is only a suggestion to fill in gaps that I think your rack has... very least, this is most of what I would acquire before thinking about a ledge or guide service.
Schweet on the List Craig! More gear on the way
- 24 additional camp photon wires
- Yates Adjustable Daisy's
- Micro-Traxion
- Alpine Draws

...I can see spending some serious coin over the next few months/years on this stuff. May have to start selling my kids toys and wife's jewelry to afford it!
Wes Goulding · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 10

Great info, thanks for this topic.

I'm a noob at climbing the Bigwalls. But I have done a few routes and have topped out on El Cap, Washington Column & the Leaning Tower.

First, I bought a porta ledge and have never used it in Yos. I do practice setting it up, hanging off an anchor in my garage. We also set it up in Box cyn and spent a couple nights in it. Other than that we always just use my clmbing partner's ledge.

Second, I also think you could learn a lot on your own. Chris Mac, PTPP, Mark Hudon and many others have posted their wisdom on the internet. You could spend months reading and viewing the many 'how to aid climb' topics. After you are done with all that, start reading all the trip reports. Start with the ones about the routes you wish to climb.

Third, I would look at the routes you wish to do first. Then acquire the gear based on the topos and the route 'beta' first. Dont buy a bunch of steel for a route that doesn't need it.

I just steadily buy a piece at a time. Slowly I build up my aid rack. I try to buy pieces based on what I can use immediately. I bought a cam hook & I aid bouldered around on it for a few weeks before I bought another one.

If I win the lottery I will do the opposite. I will buy everything brand new in bulk and hire a big wall guru to show me how to use it. :)

Have fun, be safe!

Wes

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
csproul wrote: Except, if you were to climb a wall with a guide, I doubt any of them would let you lead, so you'd get no practice leading and no practice hauling. You'd get to jug, clean, and belay. Not totally useless, but I wouldn't pay a guide for that.
I know guides that would take a client up a grade V or VI and let them lead every pitch if they wanted and were ready. I supposed it depends on the guide. "Independent" guides are probably more likely to allow this sort of things.
Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

Having been in and around the guiding community for a decade I would be surprised to find a guide who would let a client lead on a big wall. I have only had clients lead a couple times and it was terrifying because when you hand the client the rack you lose most of your control of the risk. Also you should be aware that in national parks like Yosemite or Zion there is a very strict permitting process about who is even allowed to guide there. As far as I know the Yosemite Mountaineering school is the only company that is permitted to guide in the valley and on el cap, and out of their guides their are only a handful that guide walls, (like Scott Stowe and Aaron Jones) I have seen them guiding routes like the nose and not only are the clients not leading but they belay the clients as they jug to reduce the risk of a fall. If you do choose to go with a non permitted guide you may get to lead but if something goes wrong they wont have any insurance (even if the guide claims to have insurance the company won't pay if the guide is working without a permit) and if you get caught by NPS (which is unlikely unless you need help/rescue you will both be likely to be fined for violating NPS rules) My 2 cents is that you should learn the skills and climb with a partner because as Hudon said it will be harder but much more rewarding.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Mydans wrote: they wont have any insurance (even if the guide claims to have insurance the company won't pay if the guide is working without a permit)


So? If he went the partner route, would his partner have insurance if something went wrong? No. Also, I am pretty sure the insurance guides have are to cover their asses if the client sues them, not to cover the client. I dont know any guiding company that has insurance specifically to help the client, although it may exist.

Mydans wrote: and if you get caught by NPS (which is unlikely unless you need help/rescue you will both be likely to be fined for violating NPS rules)


Which would only happen if the OP or his guide was dumb enough to say they were guiding, which is pretty stupid. The chances of them getting caught are right around 0% if they use their brain.

I am not advocating he uses a rogue guide, or any guide for that matter, but I do think the monopoly that some guiding companies like YMS have is complete bullshit.
Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

Mydans wrote:
they wont have any insurance (even if the guide claims to have insurance the company won't pay if the guide is working without a permit)

20kn wrote:So? If he went the partner route, would his partner have insurance if something went wrong? No. Also, I am pretty sure the insurance guides have are to cover their asses if the client sues them, not to cover the client. I dont know any guiding company that has insurance specifically to help the client, although it may exist.

You're right if you go with a partner they wouldn't have insurance but if you climb with a guide the assumption is that they are limiting the risk and if you're hiring a guide its implied that you may not have the skills or experience to climb the route safely. And you are mistaken about the point of insurance. Yes guides have insurance to cover their ass but the reason that it covers their ass is that if their client does get injured the insurance covers medical bills or the fess from a lawsuit.

Mydans wrote:
and if you get caught by NPS (which is unlikely unless you need help/rescue you will both be likely to be fined for violating NPS rules)

Which would only happen if the OP or his guide was dumb enough to say they were guiding, which is pretty stupid. The chances of them getting caught are right around 0% if they use their brain.

Actually most climbing rangers are a lot better than you think at recognizing guided groups if they run into them. Its generally quite obvious when you have one climber who is much more experienced than the other. I bet you can spot who is a noob versus who is a verteran at the crag and most people don't climb walls with a noob unless they are getting paid.

20kn wrote; I am not advocating he uses a rogue guide, or any guide for that matter, but I do think the monopoly that some guiding companies like YMS have is complete bullshit.

I totally agree with you on that. the permitting system is set up by the government not the guiding companies. One of the main goals of the amga is to open up access on public land to any certified guide. it is the NPS that keeps the concession system around because from a logistical perspective it is much easier to manage. If they want to regulate guiding and there is only YMS it takes only 1 phone call to get an answer. if they open it up they have to have a registration and permitting system to keep track of who is guiding in the park and when because every park limits commercial usage in some fashion.

cheers

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981
Mydans wrote:I bet you can spot who is a noob versus who is a veteran at the crag and most people don't climb walls with a noob unless they are getting paid.
In my experience, more than half of the wall teams I see in yosemite are composed of a ropegun and a noob as the subman. Usually a bad choice because people underestimate how difficult it is to clean an aid pitch for someone who doesn't have experience with it.
Carquinez · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 80

There are plenty of Paid hiking group leaders guiding. Difference is they are paid outside the park and are organized as groups. Nobody seems to care about them. Maybe the "donation" to the guide should be outside park lands........maybe a stupid argument, but only on my first cup of coffee

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Actually most climbing rangers are a lot better than you think at recognizing guided groups if they run into them. Its generally quite obvious when you have one climber who is much more experienced than the other. I bet you can spot who is a noob versus who is a verteran at the crag and most people don't climb walls with a noob unless they are getting paid.
B
Be that as it may, without proof it does not matter. A difference in experience between partners is not proof that something illegal occurred. Even if one guy was Alex Honnold and the other doesent even know how to place gear, that is still not sufficient enough to prove they are doing something wrong.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Leonard,
That's a lot of money for a course. Unless you plan to solo, don't buy a ledge. The person who you end up with might have one. Or your first walls might not need one.

Do:
1. buy Chris Mac's how to big wall climb and do the exercises.
2. consider buying my kindle book called High if you don't have advanced multi pitch skills, or at least take a tour of the free pdfs on multipitchclimbing.com
3. THE main reason people fail on walls is that the whole thing becomes overwhelming. This is because they go too slow. This is because they have not practiced with a stopwatch. A stopwatch when learning aid or multi pitch is the key tool.

So, read Chris Mac's book. Set up a toprope with a minitraxion, grigri or other method you feel safe toprope soloing with and start aiding, building anchors, jugging and hauling. Do it again, and again, and again on the same pitch. Time each activity and write it down. Try and speed up each little thing. Do it 20 times. Timing it all and writing it down is the key.

Now find a pitch you can top rope on cam hooks. Do it 10 times.

Now find an area with a large number of top rope climbs you can aid, including ones that have traversing bits. Climb, build anchor, clean, jug and haul each one in turn and see how many pitches you can do in a day. On your first wall you might expect to do half whatever this number is, so select your first wall on this basis and have a great time on it!

Lizzy Scully · · Mancos, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 25

I haven't read all the replies, so perhaps someone has already said these things, but I'd just pick an easy wall that already has ledges on it (West Face of Leaning Tower in Yosemite) and go for it. Or, if in Zion, fix a bunch of pitches one day, figure out your systems, and then finish the route on a subsequent day. You sound like you have more than enough experience to figure stuff out on your on (at least you have way more experience than I did when I did my first few walls). On the other hand, I remember my buddy Scott gave me a few hours instruction in jugging and leading aid, and I had a few folks take me under their wing in other ways... sort of. Really though, for the most part my buddies just set me off into the wild. But having that confident person who believe in me below somehow helped. Guided instruction could definitely be helpful. However, I've always opted for saving the money for other things.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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