I wouldn't be that stupid

rob.calm wrote: This isn't accurate. One's partner never used the neologism "take". I remember well the first time I heard the phrase about 20 years ago as my partner was leading a 10c at Vedauwoo and shouted take. I had no idea what it meant, but as she started falling I braked her by tightening the rope around my waist. With the fall stopped, she screamed at me asking why I hadn't put her on "take." I asked her what that meant. Oh, I said, you meant "tension". That and "falling" were the only commands used to get your belayer to tighten the rope. Rob.calm

I stem from times perhaps even more primitive. We had invented "tension" (and "slack") but rarely used it. Just using "up rope" instead. Depending on the level of panic in the caller's voice you could up rope with more or less authority.

John Byrnes wrote: In adrenaline-charged moments, perception and reality often don't jive.

John

No truer words.

The rope was a 9.8 and supposedly a first gen grigri isn't designed for anything smaller than a 10. That's why the rope has been brought up. Still my fault.

With all due respect. My left hand was not holding the brake open nor was it holding the climbers side of the rope. The event that happened at Smith was the same. That belayer was not holding the climber side of the rope or the brake and that climber fell from near the top of Churning in the Wake to just about 15 ft from the ground. I know, I was standing there watching the whole thing unfold. In fact there is a post earlier in this thread where the leader was dropped several feet. Although we don't know the particulars of that incident it was an "experienced belayer" that was involved and apparently the rope slipped through the grigri.

I think you're wrong about your reasons being the only way this failure could have happened. When Paul fell I had my hand on the brake releasing it. Once he was beyond the point where the rope snatches (shock loads)the grigri into a locked position he was free falling and both my hands were off the rope.

I am going to set up a drop test and explore this. I need and answer now that so many different opinions have been presented.

Brad

jellybean wrote:^^ A good pair of belay gloves could have killed the climber. This has happened to me twice. My belayer's burnt hands eventually let go and allowed the cam to engage . . .

An interesting theory.
But I don't think I've ever heard of one of these "dropped climber" stories where the belayer was in fact wearing gloves. (Not saying it's never happened; just literally that I don't recall hearing it, and I generally click on these threads out of a combination of morbid curiosity and a genuine desire to learn from mistakes--others and my own.)

Lots of sport climbers wear gloves, not really for safety but to protect their delicate hands.
I'm skeptical that gloves + bad gri-gri belay = climber decks, but who knows.
I suspect that with gloves, the belayer will get the rope under control one way or another, even if he's doing something wrong that creates the problem in the first place.

rockvoyager wrote: John No truer words. The rope was a 9.8 and supposedly a first gen grigri isn't designed for anything smaller than a 10. That's why the rope has been brought up. Still my fault. With all due respect. My left hand was not holding the brake open nor was it holding the climbers side of the rope. The event that happened at Smith was the same. That belayer was not holding the climber side of the rope or the brake and that climber fell from near the top of Churning in the Wake to just about 15 ft from the ground. I know, I was standing there watching the whole thing unfold. In fact there is a post earlier in this thread where the leader was dropped several feet. Although we don't know the particulars of that incident it was an "experienced belayer" that was involved and apparently the rope slipped through the grigri. I think you're wrong about your reasons being the only way this failure could have happened. When Paul fell I had my hand on the brake releasing it. Once he was beyond the point where the rope snatches (shock loads)the grigri into a locked position he was free falling and both my hands were off the rope. I am going to set up a drop test and explore this. I need and answer now that so many different opinions have been presented. Brad

a gri gri may not lock up in the "slow fall" scenario documented by the BMC link i posted many arguments ago ... even if one has their hands totally off

this is especially true if the rope is slick, supple and new .... especially if the climber is lighter and the route has a decent amount of drag

as to ropes petzl said back then


· Take extra care with skinny ropes as they offer less friction, and thus more potential for non-locking situations than fat ones. In their catalogue, Petzl recommend between “10-11mm single ropes only (9.7mm accepted)” – obviously, the beefier your rope, the greater your margin of safety all round.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmasking-the-myths

keep in mind that until recently the UIAA allows a +/- 0.3mm variance in the "diameter" of the rope ... this has now changed to +/- 0.2mm

a beal 9.7mm booster for example is MUCH slicker than an mammut infinity 9.5mm and feeds much easier through a grigri

pfwein,of the two times I experienced this scenario the first was barehanded and the second was gloved. The first resulted in a 30 ft. fall (on a 40 ft. climb) the second was over twice that distance. Luckily for me the bigger fall was caught with tip-less gloves. Both times the belay admitted to letting go of the rope as a natural pain response. The first guy had polished flesh on his brake palm and pincer grasp of the climber strand the second guy only burnt the tips of two fingers on the climber strand. Had the gloves been full fingered he probably would have been able to hold on a little longer and I didn't have much further to go. I attribute my still being here to tip-less gloves, steep limestone and the location on the route that I fell from. Anyway hopefully someone may learn from this thread and avoid future peril.

A little smarts and luck to all - JB

Brad, you have gained my respect with your acceptance of responsibility. Now stop beating yourself up about it and let us do it! ;-)

rockvoyager wrote: The rope was a 9.8 and supposedly a first gen grigri isn't designed for anything smaller than a 10. That's why the rope has been brought up.

I understand, but I don't think this is a factor.

rockvoyager wrote: My left hand was not holding the brake open nor was it holding the climbers side of the rope.

A Gri-gri locks over a very short span of rope; a few inches and a tenth of a second. So if nothing is holding the cam open, once you get your hand around the rope, you don't have enough time to "squeeze with everything you have" because the Gri-gri is faster than your nervous system. Not enough time to get burned.

So, how much rope do you remember running through your hand? Did you get yanked into the air? Was there some extraordinary amount of rope drag?

rockvoyager wrote: I am going to set up a drop test and explore this. I need and answer now that so many different opinions have been presented. Brad

Good idea, but Petzl has done this ad nauseum. The only way to get a burn on your hand in this situation is to somehow prevent the Gri-gri from locking. Is it possible that it hit something (where you bent over?) that depressed the cam. Is it possible there was a foreign object inside? Mud? Rock-chip?

pfwein wrote: An interesting theory. But I don't think I've ever heard of one of these "dropped climber" stories where the belayer was in fact wearing gloves. (Not saying it's never happened; just literally that I don't recall hearing it, and I generally click on these threads out of a combination of morbid curiosity and a genuine desire to learn from mistakes--others and my own.) Lots of sport climbers wear gloves, not really for safety but to protect their delicate hands. I'm skeptical that gloves + bad gri-gri belay = climber decks, but who knows. I suspect that with gloves, the belayer will get the rope under control one way or another, even if he's doing something wrong that creates the problem in the first place.

All of the stories I know of, including my own 60ft whipper, were because a gloved belayer held on to the climber's side of the rope. In every case (4), when the rope burned through the glove and the "pain response" caused them to let go of the rope, the Gri-gri locked.

I've trained several dozen people to belay with a Gri-gri. They don't get to wear a glove on the left hand until they've caught several hundred leader falls. This way they don't get the chance to develop a "clutch" reaction with their left hand.

John and Jelly--interesting (about the gri-gri problem with glove on the climber-side hand)--I suppose reading these accident reports has some value as we all learn new and exciting ways that things get screwed up, sometimes in surprising ways!

OK internetz John B has accomplished systematic teardown of OP. Cease and desist now that the lesson is clearly elucidated after the horribly confused first post.

Joe Lee wrote:Hey Brad The timing of your post was very apropos for me. Like you I have been climbing for a long time and last week I made a belay error that could've ended badly but didn't. I agree that hubris and complacency are dangerous and we always need to be on our guard. Regardless of experience. Thanks for posting. Joe

Joe

Sorry, I missed your post earlier.

My point exactly. Most of the time we make a mistake and nothing happens. Once in a while we get a pretty good wakeup. Then there's the worst case scenario and dealing with the aftermath. I'm really glad everything worked out for you and your partner.

Brad

Since Brad had the integrity to admit his short comings I better admit mine. I do this cause, like Brad, I want people to learn from my stupidity and arrogance. I am an "experienced" climber who would never make a belay error. I figured the easiest and best way to belay with a Grigri was to hold the handle down all the time and feed out slack with my left hand. (The hand on the climber's side of the Grigri) I figured, if the leader fell, it would be easy for me to take my right hand off the brake and grab the rope where the rope goes into the Grigri. But in the heat of the moment, we don't always do the things we know we should do and have even done many time before. I was belaying my friend Alex on Zodiac and that is exactly what happened. I froze just for a second or two with my hand holding the Grigri open and a 5 foot fall turned into a 25 foot fall. Fortunately the ground was 1000 feet (instead of 20) below us so no harm.

John Robinson wrote:Since Brad had the integrity to admit his short comings I better admit mine. I do this cause, like Brad, I want people to learn from my stupidity and arrogance. I am an "experienced" climber who would never make a belay error. I figured the easiest and best way to belay with a Grigri was to hold the handle down all the time and feed out slack with my left hand. (The hand on the climber's side of the Grigri) I figured it would be easy for me to take my right hand off the brake and grab the rope where the rope goes into the Grigri. But in the heat of the moment, we don't always do the things we know we should do and have even done many time before. I was belaying my friend Alex on Zodiac and that is exactly what happened. I froze just for a second or two with my hand holding the Grigri open and a 5 foot fall turned into a 25 foot fall. Fortunately the ground was 1000 feet below us so no harm.

70 year old John Robinson is too modest to tell you that the Alex he's talking about is Alex Honnold. I believe this was last year when Honnold was trying to free the Zodiac. I also believe that after the fall Alex looked down at John and said something like "that was longer than I expected".

John, congrats on that 11d project you redpointed.

Thanks everybody for all the good input. These things frequently turn into a butt kicking melee. I'm glad this didn't.

Climb safe.

Brad

5.samadhi wrote:time to systematically tear the guy down internetz

Time to systematically build our egos by talking about how old and ignorant we are, then insisting that the new generation should learn from our ignorance.

5.samadhi wrote:OK internetz John B has accomplished systematic teardown of OP. Cease and desist now that the lesson is clearly elucidated after the horribly confused first post.

Bloody nonsense as usual, Samadhi. Brad (rockvoyager) has been extremely courageous all through this and has my complete respect. The "lesson" is NOT "clearly elucidated". The only thing that's clear is your lack of comprehension and foresight.

If Brad's description is accurate, then we have a Gri-gri failure of a type no one (here) is familiar with and no one expects. I want to fully understand what happened in order to avoid having it happen to me or my belayer. I don't really care what you do.

Just like the "left-glove" scenario, things happen in real life that aren't anticipated in the "lab". Some of these things will kill you.

If Brad's memory of that adrenaline-charged moment is flawed, then we can put this into the "Don't do that" file and carry on.

Perhaps (perhaps not) you'll survive long enough to have friends who are maimed or dead due to climbing accidents. Or take a 60-footer and live. Over the years I have changed at least five of my climbing procedures based on accident analyses so I don't make those mistakes myself.