Mountain Project Logo

I wouldn't be that stupid

hikingdrew · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 38
coldatom wrote:FRICTION is key to getting the Grigri cam to engage. If you held the brake side so the rope makes a smooth U shape through the Grigri, then you allow the rope to slide without enough friction to catch. An S shape, formed when the brake strand is pulled down, is ideal.
^^This

coldatom wrote:I assume this technique is a hold over from using a Munter, where the braking position is to pull up toward the climber rather than down.
I was told that the pinch and slide with palm up comes from hip belays where the brake position was to wrap the rope around the waist. But it would be the same with a Munter...
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50

You either use the correct method on a Gri 2 and have 99.9% safety margin or you don't, and then you are as stupid as an idiot using an ATC at a sport crag.

I am so fucking tired of smug little fucklets who don't use this method and think they belay well because they have caught 1,000 falls.

Just try it, it works easily and well.

Watch that boring video if you must, but there used to be a good one with cute Dalia belaying Chris and it was much better, where did it go?

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
J Q wrote:You either use the correct method on a Gri 2 and have 99.9% safety margin or you don't, and then you are as stupid as an idiot using an ATC at a sport crag.
Can you remind us why using an ATC at a sport crag is idiotic/stupid? I am having trouble coming up with the answer.
Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 191

I don't think he is referring to the use of an ATC as being idiotic, but the belayer. As someone said before, a Grigri (ATC) does not belay, a belayer does.

He did not quantify the "correct method on a Gri 2" that us "smug little fucklets" should use. Darn, I am searching for the video he mentioned so that I may better myself.

Brad J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 471
coldatom wrote:It sounds like you held the Grigri with your left hand from underneath, and pinched the rope very close to the Grigri. That would do it.
Cold

That's exactly what I was doing. Worked great till it didn't.

For the record:

The rope was a 9.8 and the grigri has almost no wear. I bought it many years ago and almost never used it because I prefer the ATC. Have been using it now for the last several months.

Experience is not the issue. Sport, trad, walls, sandstone, limestone, granite, Gunks, The Red, Rifle, El Protero, France, Brazil, Thailand, Germany, Switzerland. I'll be 65 in a couple of months and climbing has been my passion for 25 years with no signs of a letup. No, experience wasn't the problem. It was complacency. This can happen to anyone. How many people on this thread have talked about close calls, being dropped or doing something stupid? I've had a wakeup that hopefully will last for the next 25 years. I figure that's how many years of climbing I have left. :-)

Gotta love a guy that thinks you're an idiot if you use an ATC for sport. Guess he wasn't around when we used bodies, trees, plates and munters.

Unless there are other questions I'm off my soap box.

Lets go climbing!! Anybody for the Emeralds? Should be going this weekend.

Brad
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

Thanks for posting up your story rockvoyager. I think it's pretty safe to say that we've all been in the same boat in terms of close calls.

I use both a gri2 and a high friction ATC depending on the situation. I have to say, I still feel more confident in the ATC, both in terms of familiarity and simplicity. Sometimes the more complicated and "automatic" the system, the more room for error, or in this case, complacency.

Glad to hear that it didn't turn out worse.

Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 191
rockvoyager wrote: I'll be 65 in a couple of months and climbing has been my passion for 25 years
Hurray for you, we are only 58 and have just begun rock climbing. Probably the oldest noobs on the block. We will probably never be able to pull a 5.11, but hope to be able to do some 5.10a's sometime in the future.
Cocoapuffs 1000 · · Columbus, OH · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 50

There's another reason to always keep your hand on the brake side of the rope - if you accidentally load the grigri backwards (don't laugh, it happens) it will still hold IF your hand is on the brake. Obviously it won't lock on its own.

Brad J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 471
Dallas R wrote: Hurray for you, we are only 58 and have just begun rock climbing. Probably the oldest noobs on the block. We will probably never be able to pull a 5.11, but hope to be able to do some 5.10a's sometime in the future.
Dallas

Starting at 58, now that is truly amazing. Hope you get as much out of climbing as I do.

Be safe

Brad
5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40
rockvoyager wrote:and decided to warm up on Expressway.
Whoa warming up on a 5.11 you must be a really really good rock climber.

:)
5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40

time to systematically tear the guy down internetz

rob.calm · · Loveland, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 630
JLP wrote: Clearly, yes it was! The average 12yr old Jr Team member at the gym probably has 100x your experience *actually catching falls* while using her equipment as taught and according to the instruction manual. The average 40+ trad climber, OTOH, likely spent their formative years with their thumb up their butt at the base of a 5.8, waiting for their partner to, at best, yell "take" - because god help them (us) if anyone actually fell off one of these blocky piles of easy everyone climbed up until the gyms started opening.
This isn't accurate. One's partner never used the neologism "take". I remember well the first time I heard the phrase about 20 years ago as my partner was leading a 10c at Vedauwoo and shouted take. I had no idea what it meant, but as she started falling I braked her by tightening the rope around my waist. With the fall stopped, she screamed at me asking why I hadn't put her on "take." I asked her what that meant. Oh, I said, you meant "tension". That and "falling" were the only commands used to get your belayer to tighten the rope.

Rob.calm
Brad J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 471
JLP wrote: Clearly, yes it was! The average 12yr old Jr Team member at the gym probably has 100x your experience *actually catching falls* while using her equipment as taught and according to the instruction manual. The average 40+ trad climber, OTOH, likely spent their formative years with their thumb up their butt at the base of a 5.8, waiting for their partner to, at best, yell "take" - because god help them (us) if anyone actually fell off one of these blocky piles of easy everyone climbed up until the gyms started opening.
I've been wondering when one of these guys was going to show up. Your assertion that you have to be a gym climber to be a safe climber is so stupid that I flushed it instantly. Plus, your post is so asinine that it leaves no room for discussion. The sad part here is you wouldn't talk to me this way at a crag. Not because I'm a tough guy but because your probably not the prick that you present here.

I infer from your post that you've never made a mistake or had a close call because you're better informed. I call BS. In fact you are exactly the kind of climber that needs to take my post and apply the message.

Brad
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
rockvoyager wrote:... I was scrambling, trying to grab the rope with either hand eventually finding it with my right. I squeezed with everything I had and finally the grigri locked... and my hands are pretty badly rope burned.
Rockvoyager, I waited to see if this would resolve itself but it hasn't. You did two things wrong:

1) You held the cam open with your left hand and fed with the right. This was proven to be bad 20 years ago because people decked. This is so passe' I won't bother with details.

2) You have burns on your hands; plural. The ONLY way to get this is by grabbing the climber's side of the rope AND the brake side simultaneously, and usually, the belayer doesn't even realize he's doing it.

Grabbing the climber's rope is GUARANTEED TO KEEP THE CAM FROM LOCKING. You said you "squeezed (the brake side) with everything I had" and this confirms you also had a good grip on the climber's side, preventing the Gri-gri from locking.

This is a classic case of operator error due to improper training, bad habits and ignorance. There is nothing wrong with your equipment.

It seems you chose to use the Gri-gri that day because of your shoulder injury, thinking it would be safer than an ATC. And it might have been, if you had understood how to use the device.

You posted so others might learn from this incident, and maybe now they will.
jellybean · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0

^^ A good pair of belay gloves could have killed the climber. This has happened to me twice. My belayer's burnt hands eventually let go and allowed the cam to engage, scary but a great lesson learned. Hopefully a lesson any of my future belayers can live without.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

Paraphrasing the OP: "My Grigri has zero wear because I've never used it but I have a ton of experience at everything else ( except using and catching falls with a Grigri)."

that about covers it..

Brad J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 471
John Byrnes wrote: Rockvoyager, I waited to see if this would resolve itself but it hasn't. You did two things wrong: 1) You held the cam open with your left hand and fed with the right. This was proven to be bad 20 years ago because people decked. This is so passe' I won't bother with details. 2) You have burns on your hands; plural. The ONLY way to get this is by grabbing the climber's side of the rope AND the brake side simultaneously, and usually, the belayer doesn't even realize he's doing it. Grabbing the climber's rope is GUARANTEED TO KEEP THE CAM FROM LOCKING. You said you "squeezed (the brake side) with everything I had" and this confirms you also had a good grip on the climber's side, preventing the Gri-gri from locking. This is a classic case of operator error due to improper training, bad habits and ignorance. There is nothing wrong with your equipment. It seems you chose to use the Gri-gri that day because of your shoulder injury, thinking it would be safer than an ATC. And it might have been, if you had understood how to use the device. You posted so others might learn from this incident, and maybe now they will.
John
The burns on my left hard are on the outside portion of the fatty part of my thumb. I never managed to grab the rope with my left. The burns on my right however are in the palm of the hand. The rope was screaming through the grigri and it wasn't locking. Now read this closely OK? The grigri was not the issue. I was using it wrong and it never had a chance to shock load into a locking position. Go look back at my posts. I have NEVER stated it was equipment failure. I have always accepted blame. JLP's rant aside, this has always been about the message not about me trying to shift the blame.

Brad
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
rockvoyager wrote: John The burns on my left hard are on the outside portion of the fatty part of my thumb. I never managed to grab the rope with my left.
Okay, in that case you got the burns on your left hand when holding the Gri-gri cam open and your description of trying to grab the rope with either hand (i.e. both hands off the Gri-gri) didn't happen. In adrenaline-charged moments, perception and reality often don't jive.

rockvoyager wrote: The burns on my right however are in the palm of the hand. The rope was screaming through the grigri and it wasn't locking. Now read this closely OK? The grigri was not the issue. I was using it wrong and it never had a chance to shock load into a locking position.
No "shock load" is necessary.

rockvoyager wrote: Go look back at my posts. I have NEVER stated it was equipment failure.
You and others discussed rope thickness, Gri-gri 1 vs. 2, etc. thinking that this could have been an contributing factor. It is not.

The reason I'm bulldogging this is to make it clear that the ONLY way get a burn on your right hand, "squeezing with everything you had", is to hold the cam open or grab the climber's side of the rope with your left hand. And that your perception/description of that tense moment wasn't accurate.
Laine Christman · · Reno, NV · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 1,305

It happens to the best of us, Brad. Thanks for sharing.

I mentored a few climbers over the years and unfortunately I've found the best lessons are those we experience for ourselves, but I am hopeful there are people out there who can learn from others mistakes and these stories should be told. However, I think this story is less about the mechanics of proper belaying using a GriGri and more about how climbing is dangerous and complacency breeds disaster - and complacency is often correlated with experience.

Stay vigil, ninjas!

Ryan Levihn-Coon · · Austin, Texas · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 145

Best of intentions, a lot of experience belaying regardless of the device, but poor belay, not poor device. Up front, i want to thank the OP for sharing. this post is really really good.

i belay using the most current method recommended by petzl for the grigri 2, namely always keeping my brake hand on, rope curved over to the right and thumb disengaging the cam for as short a time as possible when throwing slack quickly. i would offer a few things that have been said here and some not so much.

In my experience, there can be a number of very subtle/small things that "potentially" make the grigri entirely unsafe and which are shockingly easy to do, and easy for experienced belayers to do, including myself.

Several that come to mind easily: keeping the thumb too close/resting or even disengaging the cam often as a sort of really scary default position as one pays out slack to a steadily advancing lead partner; people not taking seriously that the break hand must ALWAYS be in absolute control of the rope at all times while paying and taking slack (see the post about threading the grigri basckwards), having the hot side of the rope with a relatively tight grip downward to take in or feed slack, which doesn't allow the acceleration/inertia to immediately engage the cam. not an exhaustive list by any means.

That said, a good grigri in working order is to me an auto-locking device. At the same time, I don't act like that. You will find my brake hand on the brake side at all times. As mentioned above, it does seem that when hands get involved, things seem more likely to go wrong.

I see so much scary belaying and belay technique that the complexities discussed by veteran climbers in this thread are diverse and very comprehensive, thoughtful and serious enough in their implications that reading the whole thread would not waste anyone's time. More humbly, it didn't waste minr.

i think in my humble opinion i work hard to give an attentive and good belay at all times. I make mistakes and have had some close calls. I take a lot of pride in belaying. Part of my mantra with belaying is to work hard to belay in way in which I am ALWAYS expecting a fall. I'm never hoping for one but work to act like it can come at ANY moment. This is an important point I think that may not have been harped on enough. There are always many cases in the course of a climb where I certainly think that a partner is more or less likely to fall, but that doesn't change what I just said. It's kind of like riding a motorcycle to me in a way that I think keeps me safer. I ride as if nobody ever sees me and adjust/decide what I do accordingly. Thanks again, Brad.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "I wouldn't be that stupid"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.