proposing (yet another) new ethics rule - Not Leaving More Ropes than Climbers Up

MC Poopypants wrote:This awareness that what we do affects everyone is important and often lacking. Do you have this awareness about things that actually matter or just things that bother you? Do you consider that how you spend your money affects people all over the planet? That your lifestyle affects the worlds population? That every time you use oil based products you are supporting unending war and environmental destruction. Or that how you drive affects traffic and everyone on the road. This goes on and on. I agree with what you're saying but want to challenge you (if you don't already) to take a look at everything you do in a day and ask yourself how this affects the world and is this the kind of impact you want to have. How we spend our money is far more impactful on humanity than leaving ropes hanging.

Let's set up a day to go pick up some trash and dog feces some day soon. I am well aware of my impact on the nation and globally and have spent plenty of money, time, and energy on trying to improve it. Put your money where your mouth is.

Alexander Blum wrote:You sound like you're angry at the fundamental laws of group behavior. They're not changing anytime soon. I have been to some very crowded climbing areas, and never had this particular problem. You can't change human nature, but you can go somewhere else.

Well firstly, I'm not angry. I'm annoyed. But I'm not trying to change human behavior, I was just trying to remind people to pull their ropes when they are done if they are not alone.

Really I'm more annoyed that every time anyone makes a post on mountain project, it becomes an exercise in criticizing everything the OP has done rather than looking at the issue.

But thanks!

She's Such a B wrote: Well firstly, I'm not angry. I'm annoyed. But I'm not trying to change human behavior, I was just trying to remind people to pull their ropes when they are done if they are not alone.

They're not going to do that. What you want to happen will never, ever happen, no matter how much you 'remind' people. Groups will always and forever do this thing that annoys you. Hence all the MP.com eye-rolling.

OK Boys, this has been fun. Eleanor...why do you keep trying (Oh shit, I forgot, don't feed the trolls.)

I'm going to get on some rock, work on playing nicely with others, and sending some harder routes since that seems like the best solution.

Call your mother on Sunday, stop eating Norwegian salmon, floss, and put some sunscreen on. And clean up after yourself!

;-)

She's Such a B wrote: This also goes out at J Q Ummm...thank you captain obvious? I'm working on climbing harder, I generally assume most people are. I will be thrilled when I can lead an 11 and actually climb 12s. I know how to guarantee access to a crag (go to the unpopular ones with the long approaches or get there as early as possible), but popular crags are usually popular for a reason. They have some sweet routes next to something I'll be comfortable warming up on. None of these were guided groups, they were just dominating a large section of a very popular crag or the majority of the routes on a smaller, less popular crag. They usually got there after us. JQ - If you were readily offering it to people, that's very nice of you and something I have never encountered. Redlude - I was eyeing it in hopes they got a hint. I went over and nicely asked them after they didn't. I am perfectly capable of asking people to pull ropes, pick up their dog's poop, not stand on my rope, or not scream things at my guy while he is trying to make a clip. Also, I don't want to climb on other peoples' ropes or use their gear. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept. I want people to clean up after themselves. To Summarize the points of this post - Please clean up after yourself - Be aware of other groups on the crag

If their ropes were still up then obviously someone in their group was going to climb it again at some point to clean the route. They were there first. It is your prerogative to have a irrational fear of other people's gear, but then you have to actually talk to them. I guess I don't understand how anyone with decent social skills has a problem with this, sharing a public resource often involves some compromise and discussion of your intentions. Again, is this some kind of passive aggressive CO thing? I've never encountered this attitude in the PNW

ahh I don't want to but I can't resist - I couldn't see all of them, but one of the groups was definitely just through the rap rings. I ask them if they are done the routes. This isn't an issue about my being able to talk to people. I don't want to use their rope or gear because either I or someone in my party wants to lead the route. I don't understand why the concept of my not wanting to use a strangers gear is irrational and it is certainly not passive aggressive. I can and do talk to people about this. Their stuff is in the way of other climbers, I just want them to clean up after themselves.

What you want is completely rational and not asking too much.

Also, if no one ever talks about this on a public forum, then there is little chance of changing attitudes. The point is to bring it up so that someone, somewhere might read it. Oh, like a person that wanted to learn about climbing by reading (and this'll kill ya) a climbing forum.

She's Such a B wrote:Really I'm more annoyed that every time anyone makes a post on mountain project, it becomes an exercise in criticizing everything the OP has done rather than looking at the issue. But thanks!

There was no real criticism about your proposed ethics rules. The point you're trying to make has been discussed many times here and isn't contentious. Everyone agrees that in a perfect world people would be on and off a route in a minute, never leaving their stuff hanging until someone has to ask them to clean it. Everyone also agrees that it's clearly not happening because climbers (people) can be selfish and inconsiderate. Everyone went on to suggest ways to remedy this situation in a practical manner because, let's face it, a proposed rule on MP.com isn't going to change the world's attitude...

What posters have criticized is your attitude and the profound sense of entitlement displayed when you say "I looked at them and they should immediately have understood that they're being inconsiderate and should have pulled their rope to make the line available to me. I shouldn't have to ask, it should be done. For me. ME ME ME ME ME."

Newsflash: the world is inconsiderate. Tell it what you want and it's usually more than happy to accommodate. Hinting, suggesting, glaring in a passive aggressive manner, proposing new rules, that does nothing to address the fact that better communication and less entitlement from you would have solved your problem much more efficiently than posting on here, endlessly arguing a moot point and eventually getting butthurt when people don't agree with your every word.

Now go get strong.

Now I want to talk about THAT GOAT, Boissal.

Is THAT GOAT you? Where did you meet that goat? This is important. 14ers.com people want to know.

Assuming 70% of climbers already know not to do what Beth describes, I wonder how many of the remaining 30% are: A) Assholes who will probably do it even more once they figure out how much it bothers people. or B) People who will change their behavior for the better.

Hopefully B>A, and kudos to Beth for being willing to take so much crap to try to reach group B.

Boissal wrote: There was no real criticism about your proposed ethics rules. The point you're trying to make has been discussed many times here and isn't contentious. Everyone agrees that in a perfect world people would be on and off a route in a minute, never leaving their stuff hanging until someone has to ask them to clean it. Everyone also agrees that it's clearly not happening because climbers (people) can be selfish and inconsiderate. Everyone went on to suggest ways to remedy this situation in a practical manner because, let's face it, a proposed rule on MP.com isn't going to change the world's attitude... What posters have criticized is your attitude and the profound sense of entitlement displayed when you say "I looked at them and they should immediately have understood that they're being inconsiderate and should have pulled their rope to make the line available to me. I shouldn't have to ask, it should be done. For me. ME ME ME ME ME." Newsflash: the world is inconsiderate. Tell it what you want and it's usually more than happy to accommodate. Hinting, suggesting, glaring in a passive aggressive manner, proposing new rules, that does nothing to address the fact that better communication and less entitlement from you would have solved your problem much more efficiently than posting on here, endlessly arguing a moot point and eventually getting butthurt when people don't agree with your every word. Now go get strong.

/thread

Stich wrote:Now I want to talk about THAT GOAT, Boissal. Is THAT GOAT you? Where did you meet that goat? This is important. 14ers.com people want to know.

THAT GOAT lives in the higher reaches of LCC. It may or may not be me. And it is important.

She's Such a B wrote:ahh I don't want to but I can't resist - I couldn't see all of them, but one of the groups was definitely just through the rap rings. I ask them if they are done the routes. This isn't an issue about my being able to talk to people. I don't want to use their rope or gear because either I or someone in my party wants to lead the route. I don't understand why the concept of my not wanting to use a strangers gear is irrational and it is certainly not passive aggressive. I can and do talk to people about this. Their stuff is in the way of other climbers, I just want them to clean up after themselves.

I kinda assume you already know this but in case not: you realize that like 80% of the replies to this thread are just straight up trolling you personally right?

I'm pretty sure everyone here realizes that stringing up tons of TRs on popular routes during a busy time is kind of rude.

what if I wanted to be simul-belayed by four top ropes on the sides of my route? if that's what I need to do, then mother fucker, I'm doing it

Buff Johnson wrote:what if I wanted to be simul-belayed by four top ropes on the sides of my route? if that's what I need to do, then mother fucker, I'm doing it

What in the fucking fuck is simul-belaying? You just made that shit up. Admit it.

Unless you meant simulated belaying.

It's a proven fact that nobody at a sport crag can belay with any kind of device, so I'm load sharing my skinny ass between a reverso, gri, atc, and tandem prusiks -- maybe one of them will work.

Grab one of their ropes, tie a knot in the end, then pull! Gracefully say oops, I thought you were done here, and sheepishly move on to another line. Perhaps it will initiate a frenzy of top rope pulling.

Buff Johnson wrote:It's a proven fact that nobody at a sport crag can belay with any kind of device, so I'm load sharing my skinny ass between a reverso, gri, atc, and tandem prusiks -- maybe one of them will work.

That's called redumbdancy.

Boissal wrote:What posters have criticized is your attitude and the profound sense of entitlement displayed when you say "I looked at them and they should immediately have understood that they're being inconsiderate and should have pulled their rope to make the line available to me. I shouldn't have to ask, it should be done. For me. ME ME ME ME ME." Newsflash: the world is inconsiderate. Tell it what you want and it's usually more than happy to accommodate. Hinting, suggesting, glaring in a passive aggressive manner, proposing new rules, that does nothing to address the fact that better communication and less entitlement from you would have solved your problem much more efficiently than posting on here, endlessly arguing a moot point and eventually getting butthurt when people don't agree with your every word. Now go get strong.

I wish I had your ability to make my thoughts this succinct.

Ummmm,,,, I've noticed this huge rash of completely irrational passive aggresive internet posting. I propose people actually be decent and ask if you can get on a route before bitching to the internets about it..... or stop worrying about what other people are doing and stop climbing at newb/punter crags and get on some real rock? Why are you seeking out the crags that everyone uses and then talk about how annoying it is that people are there??