proposing (yet another) new ethics rule - Not Leaving More Ropes than Climbers Up

Walk further, to less used, less toproped crags with more than 10-15 routes (or even the really far out ones with 1-2 good routes). Then you won't have to ask anyone if you can pull their rope and climb the route they got on before you arrived. There are generally two types of climbers in the world. Those that love the crowds and seek them out and those that don't. You are likely the latter. Work for it.

Patrick Mulligan wrote:Walk further, to less used, less toproped crags with more than 10-15 routes (or even the really far out ones with 1-2 good routes). Then you won't have to ask anyone if you can pull their rope and climb the route they got on before you arrived. There are generally two types of climbers in the world. Those that love the crowds and seek them out and those that don't. You are likely the latter. So work for it.

Pretty much what I do. That and climb the popular stuff on weekdays (which I realize is not an option for everyone).

Call it accommodating or passive or girly or whatever you want.

Like someone else said part of what I like about climbing is not having to deal with obnoxious people. And yes I realize the irony of posting that on MP.

3 ropes for 4 climbers is completely reasonable. That's ONE rope that's not in use. If that rope happens to be the one you want to climb, ask them if you can pull it or TR on their rope. I've never asked -- or been asked -- this question and had 'no' as a response. Most of the time I'm eyeing something with a rope on it, the owners see and offer to pull/TR without me even asking.

3 ropes is actually quite common when I go out in groups of 4. When you have somebody climbing 13a, somebody else on a 12a, and a couple other climbers on 11a, it's unreasonable for you to expect them all to share 2 climbs. Hell, when I go out in a group of 2 we usually have 2 climbs hung at any point in time assuming we're projecting different lines. That's twice as many climbs as climbers.

I should also point out that 90% of the time somebody uses my rope, they are HAPPY that it's already hung and that they can TR on it. I'd even say that most of the time people want to use my rope is BECAUSE it's set up for TR on something above their comfortable lead limit. This is part of the reason I leave ropes hanging around on TR between attempts even if I'm leading it every time: if somebody wants to TR it, it's ready to go...if they want to lead it, it's 10 seconds away from being ready to go with draws on it. And of course sometimes you just change your mind or something happens and you need to leave the crag unexpectedly, and having the TR up saves you time (ever had to clean up gear after somebody was injured?)

You'd have a valid rant if you saw like 6 climbers hogging 6 routes, but that's far from the case. Grow a pair.

Hey Beth, allow me to give you some tips:
When you talk to a dude at the crag who climbs with a girl, talk to him but make eye contact with the girl to make her feel more important and less jealous. Make it about her. A compliment or two will not hurt. I had women belay me lapping on their ropes using that technique!
When there are a bunch of dudes in the group, act like you are new and asking for advice, be humble. Make them feel they know more than you. It works magic!

Beth, one thing is a "NO NO" in presence of a girlfriend/ wife is to compliment her man on his beard. If you cannot help it do so discretely. You may risk her not only putting all of their ropes up but also posting a bitching thread on the internet how she apologizes about peeing on you or something....

Ian Stewart wrote:3 ropes for 4 climbers is completely reasonable. That's ONE rope that's not in use. If that rope happens to be the one you want to climb, ask them if you can pull it or TR on their rope. I've never asked -- or been asked -- this question and had 'no' as a response. Most of the time I'm eyeing something with a rope on it, the owners see and offer to pull/TR without me even asking. 3 ropes is actually quite common when I go out in groups of 4. When you have somebody climbing 13a, somebody else on a 12a, and a couple other climbers on 11a, it's unreasonable for you to expect them all to share 2 climbs. Hell, when I go out in a group of 2 we usually have 2 climbs hung at any point in time assuming we're projecting different lines. That's twice as many climbs as climbers. I should also point out that 90% of the time somebody uses my rope, they are HAPPY that it's already hung and that they can TR on it. I'd even say that most of the time people want to use my rope is BECAUSE it's set up for TR on something above their comfortable lead limit. This is part of the reason I leave ropes hanging around on TR between attempts even if I'm leading it every time: if somebody wants to TR it, it's ready to go...if they want to lead it, it's 10 seconds away from being ready to go with draws on it. And of course sometimes you just change your mind or something happens and you need to leave the crag unexpectedly, and having the TR up saves you time (ever had to clean up gear after somebody was injured?) You'd have a valid rant if you saw like 6 climbers hogging 6 routes, but that's far from the case. Grow a pair.

Hi Ian. First to your statement of growing a pair, the scrotum is actually rather senstive and delicate. I'll keep my vagina, thank you. Much tougher.

You are correct in your math, that was one rope that was clearly not in use. And they did pull it. We eyeballed the route for a while, did another trad route, rope was still hanging so we talked to them about it. In the scenario describe of multiple projects, I understand what you are doing but I also suspect you were notice when another group came up and started checking out your route. Furthermore, I suspect you are in a less popular area where this is less likely to be an issue.

I don't care about how happy people are to use your top rope. These are not set up on climbs that are above my parties lead limit. Glad you are such are hard man though. Might be crazy, but maybe I/we want to lead things, and preferably without your draws on. I need the practice of the whole leading experience, including placing the clip. Why would you assume I want to top rope? Some how, whenever you talk to another group about what they are doing that is dangerous, inconsiderate, whatever, you end up being the bad guy. By reminding people that if you leave a bunch of ropes up, you are impacting the climbing experience of others, maybe those less assertive than I, they might be slightly more likely to be a little more self aware.
Fortunately, not I have not been the experience of cleaning up someones gear due to injury and I am not looking forward to that day. I'm sure having a top rope set up at this point would be useful, but that is extrapolating a situation that was clearly not in play.
This has been happening at several crags, with varying numbers of people, the most recent one happened for be a group of four. This was hardly a one time thing, I wouldn't have a "rant" if it was just once. It's been nearly once a week or more since late February.

Patrick - I'm usually on predominately trad crags where you would think people top roping would be less of an issue. While I'm annoyed when it happens in Clear Creek Canyon, I get kind of pissed when it's on the small, more private crags. I'm glad everyone has assumed this was just once or this was a group of guided climbers, or that I'm so lazy I won't walk 20 minutes. I don't mind crowded in the slightest, I just mind when they behave as though they are on the only group on the crag.

there are too many words posted to follow the new ethics rule

You are not the only one bothered by it, Beth (and honestly, some of these comments are just part of the Mt. Project good ol' boys troll club).

Especially in the Colorado Front Range, which is getting so crowded any more, it is very important for climbers to think of others BEFORE they have to ask.

It seems like every group is a party of 12 with 7-9 newbs who need to take laps on TR.

It's frustrating sometimes. Whatever happened to just going out with your belay partner?

The people aren't bad, don't get me wrong, there are just a lot of climbers any more. So it's becoming a lot more important to be very considerate.

Your rope should not be hanging for any more than 5 minutes without somebody climbing on it if the crag is at all crowded.

Be considerate.

Another way to be considerate at crowded crags is to get your gear and ropes set up to lead quickly, lead that shit, climb that shit, and move on to the next route. Blammo!

Thanks Teece and Stitch! Exactly!

She's Such a B wrote: Patrick - I'm usually on predominately trad crags where you would think people top roping would be less of an issue. While I'm annoyed when it happens in Clear Creek Canyon, I get kind of pissed when it's on the small, more private crags. I'm glad everyone has assumed this was just once or this was a group of guided climbers, or that I'm so lazy I won't walk 20 minutes. I don't mind crowded in the slightest, I just mind when they behave as though they are on the only group on the crag.

You've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder. I made no such assumption. I lived in Eldo for 4 years, Vegas for 3 years and have spent the last 12 years in Tahoe. I'm not trying to say that I'm a hard man or that I've climbed longer than you, but to say that I completely understand the source of your frustration. Crowds were an issue 20 years ago, and are even more so now. I've lived only in areas where this is a big but easily dealt with problem. If the other parties were there first, they can simply set up what they want. Its not a big deal to ask them their plans and figure out how to climb the lines you want... You could even meet someone cool that way. That's how it goes.

You live in an area with a huge number of climbers, but with an amazing amount and diversity of rock. The fact that you are climbing trad opens even more possibilities. Getting away from the crowds is really not that difficult, it might just take a little work. I know you're saying you don't mind the crowds, but that really is the source of your frustration. And the "small, more private crags (which don't sound so private to me)" are obviously not working for you.

Patrick Mulligan wrote: You've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder. I made no such assumption. I lived in Eldo for 4 years, Vegas for 3 years and have spent the last 12 years in Tahoe. I'm not trying to say that I'm a hard man or that I've climbed longer than you, but to say that I completely understand the source of your frustration. Crowds were an issue 20 years ago, and are even more so now. I've lived only in areas where this is a big but easily dealt with problem. If the other parties were there first, they can simply set up what they want. Its not a big deal to ask them their plans and figure out how to climb the lines you want... You could even meet someone cool that way. That's how it goes. You live in an area with a huge number of climbers, but with an amazing amount and diversity of rock. The fact that you are climbing trad opens even more possibilities. Getting away from the crowds is really not that difficult, it might just take a little work. I know you're saying you don't mind the crowds, but that really is the source of your frustration. And the "small, more private crags (which don't sound so private to me)" are obviously not working for you.

Patrick, I wasn't calling you a hard man. Thank you though for acknowledging that this can be frustrating. I recognize it may have been a bit confusing that I lumped what I perceived to be an assumption on your part in with a number of other assumptions that have previously been made. It also seems little silly to me to decide I have a chip on my shoulder because I responded to your post. You only made one of those assumptions (that I don't go to crags with real approaches), there have been quite a few other assumptions made about the situation by other posters. Obviously I can talk to the people climbing, as I stated in my first post and as many others have pointed out. Crowds really aren't the issue in my mind, its the groups behaving like they are the only people on the crag. When I have time, I usually go to the crags with a 30+ min approach to avoid the crowds on the weekends. Obviously the smaller crags I like aren't that private if they are on MP.

I can talk to people, I do talk to people, and have made plenty of climbing friends that way. Usually though when I talk to people about what they are doing that I find inconsiderate or unsafe, I immediately am perceived at the crag bitch. (I know I'm not the only person to have that happen either).

This all comes down to people acknowledging their behavior impacts other people. If you are not alone at the crag, act like it. Recognize other people might want to be on the line you are not currently working on or are no longer working on. Yes, I can come over and ask you to pull your rope, but hopefully when I'm standing there, holding my gear, staring at your top rope blocking that crack, someone has the common sense to think gee, maybe I should clean my stuff up and not wait for some random person to come pull my rope.

I think you and I generally agree. Like I have said, repeatedly, I know I can talk to them and I do. I also think that posting reminders about crag etiquette also helps the noobs or the less self aware not annoy the rest of us.

This awareness that what we do affects everyone is important and often lacking. Do you have this awareness about things that actually matter or just things that bother you? Do you consider that how you spend your money affects people all over the planet? That your lifestyle affects the worlds population? That every time you use oil based products you are supporting unending war and environmental destruction. Or that how you drive affects traffic and everyone on the road. This goes on and on.

I agree with what you're saying but want to challenge you (if you don't already) to take a look at everything you do in a day and ask yourself how this affects the world and is this the kind of impact you want to have. How we spend our money is far more impactful on humanity than leaving ropes hanging.

Besides, you never know when you might be climbing next to Will Grello.

youtube.com/watch?v=m-m7mBS…

I am not trying to instigate, but what is so glamorous about being a bitch or a dick for that matter? Why can't we be humble, polite, considerate, cool and still be considered bad ass? Arrogance is not flattering. Learn how to communicate and stop being so freaking selfish. Kindness is not a sign of weakness in the rest of the world.
Beth being a bitch will not bring you a better life. Some men who post here are dicks... or bithces. ....or both. There are a couple of good ones but they are few and far apart.

I don't know if its just a CO thing, but this sort of this occurs all the time in the PNW, and I've never felt that asking someone to climb on their rope or pulling it has made the other groups hostile. I've also had people climb on my rope and/or draws and haven't felt that way about the people asking and I didn't get that vibe that it was an inconvenience to them. The fact that you said you were eyeing one of the lines and didn't say anything and were waiting for them to initiate maybe says something about the way your approach is netting you your response to those situations and your perceptions of their reactions. The only times its ever been an issue is with guided groups due to liability, and the guides are usually apologetic and try to accommodate in the best way they can.

She's Such a B wrote:I have noticed a recent rash of this behavior and I find it really obnoxious and frankly, rude. The problem I am having is when a group of climbers leave up multiple ropes that they are not using, thus blocking the route for the rest of us. Just yesterday I was at a very small crag (about 10 routes, both sport and trad) and there was a group of 4 climbers there who had 3 top ropes set up, 2 of them were over trad routes. This pretty effectively blocked the majority of the routes on that face. Earlier in the week, I saw a group of four climbers (different group, different crag) doing the exact same thing, 3 top ropes set up. Same crag, same day, different group, left quickdraws on the entire route. I don't know who the gear belonged to, but leaving them like that makes me tempted to use them...just to make a point.

Go ahead and use peoples draws left in place, they won't care. This might sound a little elitist, but you won't run into this issue once you start climbing a little harder. The rule for climbing moderate routes is get up early and get there first if you want guaranteed access.

MorganH wrote: Go ahead and use peoples draws left in place, they won't care. This might sound a little elitist, but you won't run into this issue once you start climbing a little harder. The rule for climbing moderate routes is get up early and get there first if you want guaranteed access.

Agree, when you climb harder more lines open up, it's a whole lot easier than trying to control the behavior of other people. Plus, if you climb harder, you deal with experienced climbers who do not leave a line up, and if they do, they are aware of how lame it looks.

I leave a line up for training sometimes, but I know I look the fool and I offer it to everyone else.

Just ask, let them say no.

Then come back and bitch; I will gladly add to the drama

MorganH wrote: Go ahead and use peoples draws left in place, they won't care. This might sound a little elitist, but you won't run into this issue once you start climbing a little harder. The rule for climbing moderate routes is get up early and get there first if you want guaranteed access.

This also goes out at J Q

Ummm...thank you captain obvious? I'm working on climbing harder, I generally assume most people are. I will be thrilled when I can lead an 11 and actually climb 12s. I know how to guarantee access to a crag (go to the unpopular ones with the long approaches or get there as early as possible), but popular crags are usually popular for a reason. They have some sweet routes next to something I'll be comfortable warming up on. None of these were guided groups, they were just dominating a large section of a very popular crag or the majority of the routes on a smaller, less popular crag. They usually got there after us.

JQ - If you were readily offering it to people, that's very nice of you and something I have never encountered.

Redlude - I was eyeing it in hopes they got a hint. I went over and nicely asked them after they didn't. I am perfectly capable of asking people to pull ropes, pick up their dog's poop, not stand on my rope, or not scream things at my guy while he is trying to make a clip. Also, I don't want to climb on other peoples' ropes or use their gear. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept. I want people to clean up after themselves.

To Summarize the points of this post

- Please clean up after yourself
- Be aware of other groups on the crag

You sound like you're angry at the fundamental laws of group behavior. They're not changing anytime soon. I have been to some very crowded climbing areas, and never had this particular problem. You can't change human nature, but you can go somewhere else.