Trad vs. Mixed vs. "Sport/Trad"

I'd like a little clarification from users of Mountain Project (MP). I'm seeing a lot of routes being posted on MP for the Tucson area as "Trad/Sport." Personally, I don't know what the heck that means.

If a climb is sport, to me that means that I need nothing other than quick-draws and some kind of redundant anchor system (equalette) for my follower to toprope on. If a climb needs gear to protect between bolts, then it's a "Trad" or "Mixed" route and definitely NOT sport, as anyone doing it with quick-draws only is taking a risk of a long fall or ground-fall.

For example, one of EFR's newer climbs in the Reef (Reef Break: mountainproject.com/v/reef-…) has several bolts protecting long sections where there are no gear placements available. But this climb is listed only as "Trad" because you'd be an idiot to do it without gear. Many traditional climbs have a bolt of two to protect where they lack gear placements. However, there are several climbs at popular places like Jailhouse, Left Hand Wall, & the Windy Point area, as well as many at less popular places like Boothill, Bug Springs, Green Slabs, etc, that were intended to be partially protected with gear that are listed as "Trad/Sport." Usually these climbs are listed in SQ2 as protecting with "BGC" (Bolts, Gear, Chains).

Here's the problem that I'm seeing: newer climbers are using MP to find climbs and they sort by climbs listed as "sport." These Mixed and Traditional routes get highlighted as Sport climbs and people (not reading thoroughly) show up with only quick-draws. Yesterday, I pulled a bail-'biner off of a Trad 5.7 (that has 3 bolts) that is listed as "Trad/Sport." My guess is that this person got on the climb and then realized that without gear, they may as well be free-soloing. mountainproject.com/v/pisto…

For me, it seems that if a climb requires some gear to protect it well and prevent a ground-fall, it should be listed only as "Trad." Or, perhaps Mountain Project could add a "Mixed" category to the route description options? Calling a climb "Sport/Trad" is just confusing and setting people up for a dangerous situation.

I'm curious for other people's input on how best to list climbs that have bolts but also take gear to protect long sections between bolts. Obviously there are grey areas (a 5.10 climb with a runout on 5.6 terrain that could take gear but no 5.10 leader is going to bother with) but I think that there are plenty of clear and common examples like the ones given above.

Also, I'm starting a pool on how long before this thread deteriorates into a rant-fest/argument/chest thumping debacle about how "I've done that climb without gear tons of times" or "a 20 foot runout isn't that big a deal and doesn't make it a 'trad' climb."

I completely agree with you, John. We should be in charge.

Agreed

"Mixed" has always meant ice climbing/dry tooling on the same route to me.

Just because it has a bolt or two does not make it a sport route.

ChefMattThaner wrote: "Mixed" has always meant ice climbing/dry tooling on the same route to me.

That´s the way most of the world understands it as well.
In Euroland we´d refer to a route with some bolts where you really want to carry some extra gear as Alpine bolted.

Jim Titt wrote: That´s the way most of the world understands it as well. In Euroland we´d refer to a route with some bolts where you really want to carry some extra gear as Alpine bolted.

I like that term, I am gonna start using it on this side of the pond!

I propose that when you have a sport route where the clips are interrupted by a placement or 2 (so the beta would be something like 8 qd's and 1 #3); that we call such a route "Retraded".

How to use the word in a sentence:
"Dude, after the 6th bolt I had a 20' runout to the next bolt. But there was this flake over to the left that I think would take a #3. This route is totally RETRADED."

Thanks for the amusing snark, Old and Busted. Let me clarify a bit: in Southern AZ & Mt. Lemmon in particular, there are very few long crack systems. The Traditional Routes are often face climbs that protect in short, discontinuous, & shallow cracks using "creative" (read "fiddly and sometimes sketchy") gear placements.

Perhaps the Old Guard can chime in here, but as I understand it, when many of these routes were put up in the Seventies, Eighties & early Nineties, the ethic was to not put bolts where gear placements were available, even if the route required many bolts. Also, it was a time that most climbers carried a light rack, because they knew that many climbs needed a piece or two. Subsequently, on Mt. Lemmon & in Cochise, there are many great climbs that are mostly bolted but with the intention that the leader will place a few pieces of pro or accept a dangerous runout. "Retraded" or not, it's what we've got here. They're great climbs that require a cool head and knowledge of placing pro (when, where, and how) to get to the top and you're not likely to want to do them as a "project" (climbing right at your limit and taking multiple falls). IMHO, those are "Trad" climbs.

This ethic seems to have changed a bit, but is still adhered to by many First Ascensionist. I really don't want to re-open the discussion of the merit of this ethic. There was at least one fist-fight at Windy Point over this, back in the day. The "bolt chopping wars" are, I think, over. So let's just figure out how to post these types of climbs on MP in a clear way that gives users quality information about the type of climb they're getting on.

I agree with the original poster.

And I, too, have climbed fully bolted climbs (mostly in the South Platte), that I consider Trad lines. A sport climb takes no gear, AND it is generally OK to fall, at least at the cruxes. Whereas a bolted route that has 30 or 40 foot runouts, where you really should expect to NOT fall, is more like bolted trad to me. Especially when the runouts come on terrain that is at or near the rating of the climb (so 5.7 bolted slab, 40 runouts on 5.7 terrain. That's a trad climb).

A sport climb is a bit more than the mere presence of bolts, I think. It's the expectation that you can push yourself at the *bolted* cruxes, and come off, with a reasonable expectation of "safety."

And if any crux moves are protected by gear, you have to call it a trad climb, methinks.

Ground up 1st ascents are trad, even if you hand drill a bolt ladder. Rap-drilling should always be reserved for a sport route, which by definition excludes placing gear. If you rap-drill what should be a trad line you should just cut your rope halfway down. But if you decide to not place a bolt on rappel because of a single gear placement then you are retraded.

Ha ha ha! That got a good chuckle out of me, Old and Busted. Not useful, but funny. (That's pretty much my personal motto, come to think of it.)

More input, please!

I have always posted routes up under the Trad/Sport designation for routes that have both bolts and also require removable pro, mostly because that seems to be the MP convention, which also happens to dovetail nicely with the B,G,C in SQTL2. Like the OP mentioned here is SoAZ we have a lot of these "mixed" routes, however the ReTraded comment also has merit. Perhaps I will go back and edit the routes I have posted as just trad and then put the specifics in the protection field. For what it's worth (nothing) my ethic (which continually evolves) is currently if the route requires just 1 piece then fully bolt it, but 2 or more then use the natural gear supplemented with bolts, while also considering the crag as a whole. Humping your rack an hour uphill to do the one route at the crag that requires 1 piece of gear is not fun (but good exercise) in which case bolt it. However, if it is a whole crag where every route is a mix of bolts and gear then maybe you don't place a bolt even if it is only one placement as anyone climbing there will have a rack. Like most thing it just depends on the situation and context.

Sport/trad is not possible. Trad routes have had bolts since the 70s when they were referred to as aid routes or free routes. A bolted route that takes one or more pieces is trad route. A very run out sport route is an R/X sport route. We referred to these as "sporty" leads.

Trad = one or more pieces of gear.
Sport = all bolts.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:Sport/trad is not possible. Trad routes have had bolts since the 70s when they were referred to as aid routes or free routes. A bolted route that takes one or more pieces is trad route. A very run out sport route is an R/X sport route. We referred to these as "sporty" leads. Trad = one or more pieces of gear. Sport = all bolts.

There are plenty of routes that take only quick draws that are not sport routes. IMO (and many others) if it is an R/X bolted route, it is not a sport route, especially if it was a ground-up bolted route.

All are good points, and for the purpose of the MP database and organization its a valid conversation. But in general, I feel it doesn't matter what people call these routes. Different regions and areas will always have their own term for bolted trad lines/gear supplemented sport routes, as long as a climber knows what is required to lead the route does it matter what term is used to describe the type of climb it is?

Mitch M wrote:as long as a climber knows what is required to lead the route does it matter what term is used to describe the type of climb it is?

Mitch, I think, that in terms of how MP is used, it does matter. You can click a button to show you sport or trad routes and it flags them with red. But, it flags any route that has "sport" in the description, even if it also has "trad" and is in fact a climb that requires gear. Yes, people should be responsible for themselves and careful about what they get on, but it's sort of a pain to look for the sport climbs in an area and have to look at all the ones labeled "sport" to see if they're really trad.

There seems to be some confusion arising from these terms referring to either the protection OR the way in which a climb was put up. For the Tucson area, I think it is safe to say that there are many climbs that take gear and are considered trad routes that were not necessarily done "ground-up" or "on-lead." And, most of us posting older routes on MP do not have any idea if the climb was first done ground-up or on rappel. So, for the sake of posting on MP, I think it's reasonable to assume that people are calling a climb "Trad" or "Sport" in reference to the protection and the "feel" of the climb (Trad having a "don't fall" mentality vs. Sport having a "safe fall" mentality).

So, here's the consensus that I'm seeing: if it takes gear, it's NOT sport. There may also be some routes that don't take gear that are not sport (because there is a "don't fall" mentality when climbing them). These two types of routes are considered "Trad." If it's fully bolted and well protected through the parts of the climb that are at or near the grade of the climb, then it's sport. Does that sound like an okay summary?

Now the real question: can we get this to stick with the new routes people post? And can we get the old ones fixed? Is there an Admin or Landlord that can help us out? A great start would be to not allow both the "trad" and "sport" boxes to be checked; it should be one or the other. Perhaps a short explanation next to the boxes when posting a route that says "needs gear" for trad and "doesn't need gear" for sport. Then, how do we start fixing all of the mess? I know our local administrator has already done a lot to get some mislabeled trad routes recognized as needing gear.

Thanks, Nick, for offering to go fix the many routes you have posted. That's a great start!

Eric Sophiea wrote: Mitch, I think, that in terms of how MP is used, it does matter.

Agreed, that's why I said for the purpose of MP it makes sense.

Gotcha! I misinterpreted your post, Mitch.

Thanks everyone for your helpful and concise input!

The definition Sport Climb / Trad Climb refers to how it was put up, not how its climbed.

I agree w Eric that it's better to just post the mixed routes as "trad".

Seen a lot of stupidity around the mixed routes at Prison Camp and would rather they not show up on the screens of people who are looking for sport routes.

I have 8 or 9 routes posted the sport/trad way and will go fix them now.

Merritt, You may be correct as per a strict definition, but that is not how most people seem to use the designation on MP.

Christian: Woot! Thanks for making those fixes! I see a lot of the same stupidity at Prison Camp and it bums me out. I watched someone do their "first lead" on a mixed route without placing any gear. Dude was definitely in ground-fall range. Derp.

Merritt King wrote:The definition Sport Climb / Trad Climb refers to how it was put up, not how its climbed.

In the context here, the terms relate to the protection, not so much the style of FA. That probably needs to be clarified when the tic box comes up.