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Cochise Stronghold: Toofast Topos & Cochise Climbing

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

^^^well put^^^

Greg Opland · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 181

Jefe - my understanding is that it isn't just the one route, there are more.

And I haven't said much of anything about Scott, just against the practice.

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Let's see... what would be the best way to teach future generations that chipping holds is unforgivable. How about Scott, the chipper and guide book author, doing a full mia culpa in his new guide book?? When the perpetrator comes out and fully admits to screwing up it's much more effective a deterrent than someone else bitching about it.

At this point it's not about bashing Scott, everyone knows what he did. It's about preventing this sort of activity in the future. Judging by Brian's post and others it appears there are still climbers out there that think it's OK to chip and glue at will.

There are other routes that have been chipped by Scott in the Stronghold. The route Geir and I took down was not a one off.

Hendrixson · · Littleton, CO · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 3,290

I would like to reiterate that to the best of my knowledge no chipping or gluing has happened in the Stronghold in years. In my limited Cochise climbing adventures I have noticed some gluing and only one instance of chipping, which was at Sweet Rock and not by the FA.

In the interest of moving forward rather than talking in circles, why not utilize Mountain Project? List the offending routes and tag them as 'Chipped'. Additionally add comments to routes so that other climbers can be made aware of these conditions. Lastly star the route as you see fit. This would allow climbers to make informed decisions and have the experience they seek. If manufactured routes are abhorred by the community with bomb ratings future developers may think twice about emulating the practice.

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751

John,

Here is my take, take it in a friendly tone.

I have climbed extensively in the Stronghold. Routes were being put up with glue from around 1996 to 2009. The Access Fund had a policy specifically against gluing and chiseling on their website as early as 1999 so by this point I think it should have been clear nationally that it was not a wise practice.

More specifically in the Stronghold, which had a pretty darn stiff local ethic of ground up development until the early 90s, I don't think it was ever acceptable to the local community to manufacture holds.

I have come across numerous instances of gluing and aggressive cleaning while working on my own guide. I have been told about, but not yet gone to confirm on my own, more possible chiseling. This is beyond the Rockfellow route. To be kind, I will not go into specifics on the forum, if anyone wants to talk about this they can contact me personally.

Since updated guides are being prepared for the public, I want to be frank and say I don't want to see routes put up in this manner passed on to the current or following generations of Stronghold climbers. Jim, Russ, and Greg have all wisely noted that the practices will continue by others if they are not questioned. I think routes in Cochise with manufactured holds should be excluded from the guidebooks and the people who established them can kindly, quietly clean them up.

There are plenty of well done routes in the Stronghold that the FAs can be proud of, let's focus on those.

Jefe, thanks for the nice comment earlier in the thread about my climbing and ethic. I thought that was very cool of you.

Mike, I see that you've been trying to get a hold of me and will PM you.

Thanks,

Geir

MJW · · Boise, ID · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 20

^^^+++11 to Jefe...that's right, this one goes to eleven

First, I don't think BrianB is condoning any kind of negative shenanigans on the rock by Scott or anyone. I think he's saying....simply layoff Scott and appreciate the goodness he's provided. Swallow your bitter pills and go climbing. Try to have a good time you grumpy focks. It's just climbing. The chipping incident is long dead. People make mistakes. Move on. Improve your skills, crank the scary testpieces and then maybe you've earned the right to pound your chest a little? It’ll go along much better with your inflated ego's and sense of right. There are other 'notable' Tucson locals who've done their fair share of gluing and chiseling on Mt. Lemmon, Milagrosa, El Cap, elsewhere too. Why no beat-down for them? Are the rules different elsewhere? Are those routes "noted" in the guidebooks

If you don't like Scott's newer routes don't climb them. Take some of your time and money and put up your own roues in "better" style..."if" you got the skills and the balls. Fact is, there's not whole lot of real skill and balls going around out there. Mostly ignent ball-cupping and intardnet bashers. I've known Scott for many years and have spent countless hours belaying or doing 2nd ascents of routes he's put up down in the Stronghold...and elsewhere. Many of these are not published and unless you got the info 1st hand from Scott you've likely never heard of or climbed these routes. I will tell you straight up they are blemish-free, outstanding..and not bolt ladders. Many of the bolts put in on lead.

Most importantly, Scott get's the highest marks for being a great human being. One of the friendliest, most generous people I've had the pleasure to call a friend....never mind climbing. This thread reeks of the destructive shite I see on STaco. Bunch of bitter washed-up oldtimers hanging on to delusions of yesteryear. Jimbou and Geir...what other routes are altered?? Let's hear it. Who did it? Sounds like you guys know all and are ready to issue judgment? Did you talk to the offender face-to-face about this? Intardnet bashing is the highest form of **cun...yness**...fyi

Mike Witt

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

MJW,

Brian specifically said "he could not care less" care if a hold is chipped or glued.

I have had a face to face with Scott and I told him the same thing I've stated on this site.

I have also on many occasions praised Scott's routes and his tireless efforts doing new routes.

I have beat down others that have chipped on Mt. Lemmon, ask John Baker about this.

I do put up my own routes and I don't chip holds.

Why are you asking me and Geir about other chipped routes in the Stronghold. Ask Scott. Oh wait he refused to fess up when we took down his route the last time, so why would he admit to any other chipping now?

The whole point of my post was for Scott do admit he screwed up, talk about in his new guide and hopefully prevent future climbers from chipping holds.

Remember those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You and others are all a bit too eager to insist we move on, to pretend the chipping didn't happen. Seems like your more interested in protecting Scott than preventing chipping and gluing in the future.

Alex Kirkpatrick · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 335

Thought provoking article about chipping Published in Rock and Ice a year ago or so. Nothing earth-shattering but I would say its worth a read.

rockandice.com/lates-news/m…

MJW · · Boise, ID · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 20

Jimboooo,

A point-to-point reply...and then I will peace out of this filthy thread for good. Sorry to be a little mean....it's good for you.

Brian specifically said "he could not care less" care if a hold is chipped or glued.

- Yes. I read it. A bold statement. My 1st impression was he's not serious. More of an ironical twist to get ones attention. Making a point that there's a bigger picture than just our personal climbing ethical viewpoints. I don't know Brian but he looks like he's a good steward to the rock. Personally, I've climbed plenty of routes in many states that were altered in some way. Many of which I didn't know about until afterwards. Honestly, I had a great time on them and didn't really care. I was more upset by the litter and general impact on the ground.

I have had a face to face with Scott and I told him the same thing I've stated on this site.

- Good on ya. If there are more provlems you should continue to meet with Scott. Like a man. This intardnet nonsense is so coweirdly.

I have also on many occasions praised Scott's routes and his tireless efforts doing new routes.

- You should. He would do the same and probably does. Better yet...have a conversation with Scott that doesn't revolve around climbing rocks. See what happens. Just a suggestion. Free of charge$$

I have beat down others that have chipped on Mt. Lemmon, ask John Baker about this.

- If that's what you need to do then good. Have you been selective or chastised all? I'm pretty sure our chipper/offender lists match. Besides Scott, I hope you are addressing this stuff in person with these folks. Get all of your peeps together and have an intervention if it bothers the masses. This is how it worked before you could sit in your creepy robe and slander people from behind your laptop. Again...don't be a pussy. Kinda the moral of this story.

I do put up my own routes and I don't chip holds.

-High Five!!!

Why are you asking me and Geir about other chipped routes in the Stronghold. Ask Scott. Oh wait he refused to fess up when we took down his route the last time, so why would he admit to any other chipping now?

- I'm asking YOU b/c you are the one talking s**t and apparently have the damning evidence. If one is innocent and accused of a crime the burden of proof falls upon the accuser. Calling someone guilty until proven innocent? That's how they roll in France. Are you a moron...this is basic s**t Jim. If there are other infractions of note you need to get your ass out there and chop the route, get pics, etc. If you are going to post it here we're waiting. You can milk this thread for another few years at the very least.

The whole point of my post was for Scott do admit he screwed up, talk about in his new guide and hopefully prevent future climbers from chipping holds.

- The point of your post is to destroy Scott's character while you are sitting behind your keyboard. The word is out about chipping. Everyone got the message long ago. There is nothing YOU can do to stop people from altering climbs or doing anything else douchey that humans are capable of. The character assassination approach is not working for you. Here is the REALITY. Scott has more skill, energy, and vision than you and it causes butthurt. My advice...get down to the SH and make your own history! Plenty of rock left. Have fun no worries.

Remember those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

- Remember...those that fail to realize they are grumpy assholes are doomed to remain bitter GAH's

You and others are all a bit too eager to insist we move on, to pretend the chipping didn't happen. Seems like your more interested in protecting Scott than preventing chipping and gluing in the future.

- Yes eager!! Let's move on. Be happy..crank the rads
- No pretending..chipping happened...we all agree on that. Hopefully it won't ever happen again. It will somewhere/someday. But we all get it Jimbo...thx.
- Scott doesn't need protecting. Personally, I'd like to see you two in a MMA
cage with 6oz gloves ;-)

OK....lets bury this nonsense. If you guys get in the ring let me know. I'm a solid cut man ;-)
Mikee

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Oh Mickee who sounds butt hurt now???

I like Brian and he's done some cool stuff in the back country, which is why I was so shocked at his post.

I have talked with John Baker face to face. We're cool.

Fact is Scott has never come out publicly and admitted to what he did. He relies on tools like you to defend his actions and come to his rescue when guys like me call him out.

Scott definitely has more energy than I. More skill and vision... that's debatable.

I've done at least 40 new routes down in the stronghold. Ground up scare fests for the most part. So Scott's bolt lines crisscrossing old routes and each other really don't impress me so much. (Other than the time and expense to drill that many bolts!)

I would argue that Scott has done the Stronghold more of a disservice than a service with his rampant drilling. So his "vision" is not something I want to emulate.

I've done somewhere around a thousand new routes over the years. If making history was my goal I think I've done it. So no Scott envy here. Sorry to bust your bubble.

Fact is, if we went down and chopped more routes you and the rest of the Ayers tool box would rant and rave about how we should have left it alone or let Scott go fix it. Which he would never do because then he would have to admit to the offense. You just need to look at the shit storm thread from the last chopped route to confirm this fact.

I still stand by my assertion that until Scott does a full mea culpa, on a public forum, he's the coward not me.

I probably won't grant your wish for blood and call Scott into the ring. So sorry.

Brian Benedon · · Tucson · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,682

Now thats stirring the pot... I'm glad to see people passionate about climbing, ethics are important. I do care, like most of you I've lived my life around my climbing obsession. Mike and Jefe thanks for reading between the lines. I used to get upset about things I didn't approve of and skip bolts because I thought I had something to prove. It seams that I climb for different reasons now, I prefer to enjoy my time out, focus on the good things, I'm not looking for evidence of modifications. Of course I would rather climb all natural and unmodified routes. Thats not always possible.

Life is too short to go around being bitter. People are important, the little stuff really doesn't matter.
Scott is a nice guy he does't deserve the constant bashing.

Current ethics violations should be handled with professionalism. SACC might be the proper format in that case. A "civil" thread dealing with certain issues is would be welcome and most likely more influential, that can be done without pointing fingers.

PS I saw a preview of some parts of the book. Tanya is doing a great job, it should be really good.

jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,626

Haha. Wow. Just stumbled on this. Talk about thread drift ! And I find I am despicable. Cheers to everyone I know from this thread... which is just about every participant.

Hendrixson · · Littleton, CO · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 3,290

Thanks for sharing the article, Alex. Definitely a thought-provoking read.

j mo · · n az · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 1,180

Hey this thread inspired me. I'm moving to Tucson to climb with ya'll!!!

Well, actually work inspired the move, but gosh darn it I'm fired up to meet all you characters and climb with whoever is super stoked on Cochise, Lemmon, and the backcountry, specially cracks. Not trying to hijack the thread just trying to say whassup in the spirit of the bro-out. And anyone who has been at odds with anyone else in this thread, I drive and pay gas to stronghold this fall if you'll ride in my truck with your interweb adversaries and talk it out over some aero press coffee....

I read on MP years ago about how us flag climbers are a-holes, and it's been the best climbing community I could have dreamt up. So I betcha T town has solid folks. Even if they kick each other in the nuts sometimes. It's just cause they care so dang much...

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Without exception, AZ has THE MOST friendly bunch of climbers I have met anywhere. At the crag, the AZ climbing community is second to none imho. Online... that is another story! Cheers to AZ folks, south, central and north.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486
jbak wrote:Haha. Wow. Just stumbled on this. Talk about thread drift ! And I find I am despicable. Cheers to everyone I know from this thread... which is just about every participant.
youtube.com/watch?v=7Xrw0gb…
Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

You know we still love you jbak.

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040
JMo wrote:Hey this thread inspired me. I'm moving to Tucson to climb with ya'll!!! Well, actually work inspired the move, but gosh darn it I'm fired up to meet all you characters and climb with whoever is super stoked on Cochise, Lemmon, and the backcountry, specially cracks. Not trying to hijack the thread just trying to say whassup in the spirit of the bro-out. And anyone who has been at odds with anyone else in this thread, I drive and pay gas to stronghold this fall if you'll ride in my truck with your interweb adversaries and talk it out over some aero press coffee.... I read on MP years ago about how us flag climbers are a-holes, and it's been the best climbing community I could have dreamt up. So I betcha T town has solid folks. Even if they kick each other in the nuts sometimes. It's just cause they care so dang much...
Just a friendly heads up - Be mindful of the "side you choose". It's been my experience there is no neutral ground. Glad to hear you're moving down our way. Hope you enjoy it here! ~d
Red · · Tacoma, Toyota · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,625

That's funny Daryl. I find that if I'm friendly to others, they are normally friendly in return. Jmo or anyone else can be friendly with "both sides" and not choose one side or the other, and still maintain a pretty healthy "neutral ground". It's not like you're choosing between the Taliban and westerners.

GEEEEEZZ this thread has drifted!

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040

True Red. Definitely more to it than just what I wrote and ymmv; hopefully it does. Oh well, life goes on.. don't sweat the little stuff or you won't get out alive. (jm) :)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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