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How do you decide if a runout is worth the risk?

FoamFinger _______ · · Rad Town, Not set (USA) · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 250

Think about the purpose of protection; its there to protect you in the likely event of a fall. If your perception of your capability (for a given grade of climb) is congruent with the reality of your capability than than using protection is optional.
I use protection on route to mitigate to potential risk of decking. If your skill level is at a high enough level that you do not need to worry about falling then you have the option of not plugging in pro or clipping a bolt.
Its all about your actual skill level vs. your perceived skill level and whether they are congruent with reality.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Russ Keane wrote:"I'm guessing from this that you are a. A troll or B. Suck at rock climbing. I'd be interested to find out which." Wow, take it easy. It's called differing opinions. There are plenty of climbers who find unfinished leads a bad idea. Not only is it unsafe, but you leave gear-- and sometimes you don't get it back. What is the problem with committment to finish what you start? Sure it's not always going to happen, but it's a good rule of thumb. It's pretty dangerous to end up 3/4 of the way up a climb on lead, above your last pro/bolt, and get freaked and have to figure out how to bail. Much better to have the mindset that you are going to finish the route -- makes you a better climber and forces you to work through the difficulties. Take it easy on the insults, if you don't mind.
first rule when you find yourself in a hole - stop digging....
Tombo · · Boulder · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 410

My response would be how bad do I want to do the route in good style which to me means no hangs, onsite. On a trad route I'll probably care about retreating then on a on a sport route which I rarely care about. Strangely for me a run out on a sport route bothers me more than on a trad route. Probably because I expect it on gear and always supprised on a sport route since you can usually view the whole thing from the ground.

Many of my most memorable climbs had run outs, the mental parts more than half the game. Now that I'm pushing 60 years the thoughT of getting hurt means alot more. I've backed off more routes in the last 4-5 years then in the prvious 30.

Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220

Since this is the "Sport Climbing" forum, I'm going to answer on behalf of sport climbers (not to be confused with closet tradsters who clip bolts):

1) Learn to differentiate between falls with consequence and safe falls. A "runout" could be perfectly safe if the fall is clean. Conversely, a relatively short fall could be dangerous if it's near the ground or there are obstructions.

2) Practice falling safely and catching falls safely. As your falling and belaying improve, you will expand your definition of "safe fall."

3) Harder routes tend to be safer. Many bolted climbs, especially under 5.12, are not safe to whip all over - mostly because the angle isn't as extreme and the wall maybe isn't as blank (depending on the type of rock).

I'm extremely risk-averse, and I place a relatively low value on the "adventure" that comes with overcoming dangerous situations. When faced with a fall consequence, unless the grade is well below what I could conceivably fall on, I'll probably stick-clip or bail.

While this may seem like a restrictive philosophy, most of the sport climbing I do is hard and steep and you can pretty much fall anywhere. I'd rather get my adrenaline rush from trying hard while pumped, and taking big safe whips, than from actual risk of injury/death.

It's sport climbing. Make it safe.

And since you asked... I also wrote a post a while back on how to get into sport climbing:

http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-to-get-into-sport-climbing.html

Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220

Slightly tongue-in-cheek...Here are some terms I've read in this thread that, as a wimpy sport climber, simply do not understand:

"anchor" - um... do you mean a bolt?

"protection" - I think you mean draws - those steel things that are always hanging on the route.

"onsite" - you mean onsight?

"headpointing" - dude, what are we, on gritstone?

"R" - Why are we bringing movie ratings in here?

"retrieve your stuff" - usually when I bail on a route, I just pull my rope and try the one next door.

"Don't get on it if you can't complete it" - Um... this is the BEST reason to get on a route.

"bail biner" - Why would you use a biner when you could just lower off the permadraw?

Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220
Short Beta wrote: Definitely a good point. Some days in the gym, I'll get on the overhanging wall and just take some big falls if I feel shaky that day. However, outdoors, it is sometimes hard for me to tell whether or not the potential whipper would be dangerous. Call me a N00b I guess. It's still a learning process for me.
SB: Right on. Once you know a fall is safe, overcoming fear is a separate problem - you take a bunch of falls. However the process of learning what makes a safe fall vs. a potentially consequential fall is a tricky one. I think many people feel the shame of being a n00b and err on the side of boldness, which I think is risky.

Again, I'd like to emphasize that facing down dangerous runouts is NOT something that is a core part of sport climbing. It's there if you want it, but it's not what sport climbing is about.
Geoff Georges · · Seattle, WA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 4,649

Short Beta,

This is not an abusive reply, only some tips.
Agreed with someone above, practice small increments of run-out over time.
Know your fall hazards
Practice falling at the gym and on safe rock climbs to get used to falling.
Take longer falls over time.
Wear a helmet, surprising how many leaders even on Sport climbs I have seen go upside-down.
You could carry a 2 and 3' sling to stand in on the bolt to maybe reach next bolt.
Use a stick clip if unsure. You can clip into the bolt where you are stuck and lower rope to bring up stick clip ( cheater stick in the aid world) to reach next bolt.
Follow routes with run-outs to get used to how it may feel before you lead them.
That said I am not very good with run-out, but to me run-out is usually like 20' or more.
But if it is mostly sport routes in question, you have to judge how far the bolts are, how much slack rope there is, how far up, or overhanging, hitting stuff if falling. Sometimes the bolting distance gets wider as you go up with the theory that if you won't have a ground fall it's ok if you take a whipper. Lots like that at Smith, well lots are way high for 1st clip too.

Short Beta · · Troy, MI · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 45

@Grover, as I mentioned earlier I actually do not have balls.. petite female here.
Geoff, I appreciate the tips! I was stuck in top-rope world at the gym for my first 7 months of climbing. The only way to move past that irrational fear is to keep taking controlled falls (working on it every week)
I feel like 25% of people on MP throw you in the p-ssy club for lowering down from a runout, and the other 75% have a limit for how sketchy of a runout they are willing to take on. Put me in that 75% please!

J. Kincaid · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 5

I took a 60 foot whip last fall at the Red. I fumbled a clip at the anchors on a 90 footer (or close to that), dropped the rope, got pumped an fell. The rock was overhung, and I ended up plenty of distance off the ground so the risk was low. So it depends on the risk:

Overhung, no groundfall == whip away.
ledgy, groundfall, big swing == don't fall.

And if you can't do it without falling, how badly do you want to do it? If it's badly enough to risk injury and time off the rock, then get after it.

Geoff Georges · · Seattle, WA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 4,649

Short Beta, since you are fairly new to climbing, you are probably new to Mountain Project and Super Topo is about the same for quality of forums.
You will find useful information, but expect to wade through the shallow end of the gene pool.
I had a slow progression of moving through the grades in the old school way starting in the 80's and since there were no climbing gyms we just started leading on our own.
Now with gyms there is the danger of gym climbers doing 5.11 in a gym and then thinking it just transfers to real rock.
If you have the money doing some of those clinics with a pro, or hiring a guide can advance your skills rapidly.
Concentrated time like road trips helps to be at it for a solid chunk of time.

Ed Wright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 285

A lot will depend on how you're feeling on that particular day. Some days a scary runout will terrify you and on other days the same runout will seem OK.

The best advice I can give is to go with your instincts on that particular day and on that particular route.

Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240

When I need to get to the top and there is no gear I run it out.

You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here...

Short Beta · · Troy, MI · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 45

Please note how my post wasn't about asking if I should lead runouts or not. My bad if it came across that way. I was simply sharing how it's conflicting to me sometimes and was curious of everyone's views on it. @ CJC I'm not sure what you've led besides gym routes, but I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that sport routes cannot have dangerous runout sometimes.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

depends on if i am wearing a new Prana shirt or not.

Mark Byers · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 50
Ed Wright wrote:A lot will depend on how you're feeling on that particular day. Some days a scary runout will terrify you and on other days the same runout will seem OK. The best advice I can give is to go with your instincts on that particular day and on that particular route.
Scary runouts always terrify me, but once I have run it out and lived to tell about it, I know it was worth the risk. ;-)
Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623
Short Beta wrote:Please note how my post wasn't about asking if I should lead runouts or not. My bad if it came across that way. I was simply sharing how it's conflicting to me sometimes and was curious of everyone's views on it. @ CJC I'm not sure what you've led besides gym routes, but I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that sport routes cannot have dangerous runout sometimes.
CJC has done some of the scariest of scary around these parts. There are runouts on routes that have bolts only for pro, but they are not sport climbs. At a place like Stone, they are still called trad routes. I always thought that was strange, but it is good to know if your trying to onsight climb it. Something like toxic avenger at the Red may feel runout climbing there, but it is all about perspective. To me, that is still a safe sport climb.
Matt Wilson · · Vermont, USA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 316

If you get 2 feet off the ground and you realize your not isn't tied properly, don't back off the route. Not only is it bad form but it is the ultimate shame. Same goes for if you take a fall and break your ankle. You are still committed to the climb and you are required to finish it. This is climbing, damnit, not tiddlywinks!

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
TomCaldwell wrote: CJC has done some of the scariest of scary around these parts. There are runouts on routes that have bolts only for pro, but they are not sport climbs. At a place like Stone, they are still called trad routes. I always thought that was strange, but it is good to know if your trying to onsight climb it. Something like toxic avenger at the Red may feel runout climbing there, but it is all about perspective. To me, that is still a safe sport climb.
This isn't about run outs like at stone though. It's in the sport climbing forum and the route mentioned in the OP is a sport route in the black corridor. "Run out" in trad is way different than "run out" in sport, where risk is supposed to be a minimal part of the equation.

Having climbed the route in question, I don't remember thinking it was run out, more just awkward and not particularly worthwhile. Given that someone mentioned falling and getting hurt on the route, maybe it was more dangerous than I thought. And IMO, that particular route is not worth it.
daricouv Dugger · · Vancouver, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 10

"What is your threshold for runouts? Is there a line where the risk outweighs the accomplishment of finishing the route? How do you know where that line is for you? And when you've found yourself shaking at the top of a runout, with your last anchor dangling far below you, how do you reclaim control of your nerves?"

Short Beta, I notice you write later that you are 5' tall. So am I. My climbing experience began before climbing gyms became the norm. Now gym climbers accelerate in their climbing skills to climb and lead 5.10s in less than a year but gym climbers don't have the years of building confidence and experience. Years ago, many climbers were not able to climb all year long, so we did not improve as quickly as climbers today. This being said, here're my takes on your questions.

The line of choosing the risk versus the ambition to finish the climb (assuming a lead, not TR) for me comes from the following:

Know the highest ability of my outdoor climbing.
At a new area, start climbing the easy grades to gauge the difficulty level.
Every climbing area has slight variations in their grading systems.
Familiarize myself with the rock on the easier grades.
Look at when the FA was done. It gives me an idea if the bolts are farther spaced or not. I find that more recent bolted sport climbs have the bolts more closely spaced. Read between the lines on the route description.
Runouts typically occur because the FA decided it was an easy stretch. If I am on a 5.10b, then I assume the runout might be 5.8. If I am comfortable with a 5.8, I'm ok with the runout.
If the runout is to the first bolt, (yikes), it's a choice I make to start the climb - especially if the moves are all 5.10b!
Decide what my philosophy is for backing off a climb before I start a climb.
Am I going to "try" the climb, or will I commit to finishing the climb. It does make a difference psychologically.

When you are experiencing "elvis legs" or fear, will you decide to quit (whatever that means) and choose to do that every time? You may find if you choose this "route" every time, you will more than likely choose to quit each time a climb is tough.

Personally, if my thoughts wander to "I can't", I self talk (not discuss the climb with others), breathe, rest (if possible), but not too long, and work through the problem, even if I have to fall and study the route. I don't give myself permission to lose my nerve. It's a mental thing! If you want to get better, you have to push. And if you have others who can set the route, then TR before leading.

BTW, I can always tell if the first ascentionist (bolt setter) is tall, because I have to make risky moves off great foot or hand holds to clip a bolt. My attitude is, not fair, but I know it's a harder climb for me and it's great!

Adam Wood · · seattle · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 1,428

You can think or you can act. Over thinking can paralyze your progress (IE rationalizing) dangerous descents require riding from point a to point b and mitigating as you go and the same is true for an ascent. Break it down into steps then accept and act with absolute resolve. Think about it later. Most of us do our best work when backed into a corner, perhaps this is human nature. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
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