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Petzl Fifi hook for haul bag retrieval

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Okay, This is what I figure was happening under the Iron Hawk roof. I was pulling out on the hook and not up on it. I was eventually able to bounce it off the anchor.

Iron Hawk Roof/Petzl Fifi problem.

Wes Goulding · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 10

Yes, I see now. Interesting.

So, no tagging or tag earlier, or something else like just slippery knot?

Wes

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

If the bag had been only 15 feet below the apex of the roof, it would have been fine I think.

Piton Ron · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 0

I first used the "simul rap/haul" on an 11 day solo in 1976. Sometimes I've had similar problems with disengagement.

The Petzl hook is a great idea.

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

My main issue with this method is bringing the extra rope. I've found that the worst thing in soloing is the descent (unless I've saved up some of that sweet porter money) and having the carry down another rope is the kind of thing that can change a day of recovery to three days of recovery. I hate hiking and always try to get everything down at once (via carrying multiple bags down the trail in short 1/8-1/4 mile legs.) and this is where saving weight is important. This is another case of bigwall theory, we never consider the descent as part of the climb until we're on top staring at the gear and wondering whether it's worth it to just leave everything there a taking up another hobby.

Piton Ron · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 0

I used a 7mm as a haul line. I rapped on a 9mm, and often used a 10.5 lead line.

The weight of the 7mm was only a few pounds and the efficiency that it enabled made it worth it.
And more than once I cut up my 7 for rap slings to get off something big.
It was also useful for following pendulums.

Peter Zabrok · · Hamilton, ON · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 645

You know, I have really thought about this a lot, and here are my conclusions:

- obviously, this is a technique that is only viable for solo climbers

- it is EXTREMELY dangerous, and the potential for real disaster is ever-present! Accordingly, you really need to "get" how this works, how you can die, and how to make sure you don't die while using it

- it may not be worth the risk of dying, and the additional clusterfuckage it entails

I know of only two scenarios where you would use it, but there are probably more. Certainly this hook with the slot is much safer than the traditional fifi which has the point of attachment only at the top.

- first scenario is if you are leading without carrying your entire rack, and leave a Solo Tag Rack hanging from one of these hooks, so that if/when you need more gear in the middle of the pitch, you can pull it up to you.

Benefit: You don't have to wear every single piece of gear you think you'll need for the pitch, so your lead rack is lighter

Drawback: It is time-consuming to set up, especially in mid-pitch

Analysis: Not worth it to me. Kate talked me out of it. "Much better just to grab all the stuff you think you'll need for the pitch, and throw it on you. If you need more stuff, it is faster, easier and safer to rap back to the lower station and grab it than it is to tag the stuff up to you." She's right! So I rejected this technique on my last solo

- second scenario is for Double Tagging, whereby when you rappel the pitch after leading it, you have a secondary load sitting on one of these hooks, and this load "goes up for free" as you rappel down

Benefit: You can really save yourself a lot of work this way! It is practical to make up a secondary load that is about 60% of your body weight. You rap down, and it goes up "for free". Certainly easier to set up at your lower belay station, than it is to set up a Solo Tag Rack partway up a pitch

Drawback: You need to bring an extra rope, plus a second hauling device. If there are roofs, the load may not clear. I use a lightweight mountaineering half-rope, and a piglet. If you rig your haul line rappel from a knot instead of through a second hauling device, and later lift your pigs onto the same hauling device you used for the Double Tag using a 2:1, then you can get away with only one hauling device.

Analysis: I used this on my last solo, Horseplay on the left side of El Cap. I believe it worked perfectly every time, in spite of the wall being less than vertical most of the way. I really loved pulling up all that weight "for free", which made hauling my main piggage seem a lot more reasonable.

In either of these instances, you absolutely must be familiar with the "slippery overhand backup knot", which you tie above you fifi just in case you blow it. I use a dedicated wide-gate carabiner whose gate I have duct-taped shut permanently, so I don't accidentally pass the slippery knot through the gate of the crab. If you do that - and this is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact - then you will snooker yourself, and your load won't be able to go up.

Good luck, DFU.

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

The most important thing to take from all of these responses is the following:

DO NOT attempt this technique on your first time out soloing a bigwall. Soloing is nothing if not a clusterF and rope/gear/systems management hell. Solo a bigwall or two (not just a pitch or two at the practice crag) before even THINKING of considering this technique.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Good posts by Pete and Kevin, two guys who really know how it's done.

Erik Sloan · · Yosemite, CA · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 254

Great thread!

I heartily agree with Kevin that most folks would spend time they could eating and drinking messing with this stuff, and would then climb slower(and lose any time-saving benefit). Rope bags(in teams of two - obviously they are important soloing) have always been the same way for me - it's just one more thing to remember, and to mess with, when a sling works fine and has a lot of other usefulness.

Didn't Tommy Caldwell have one of these break on him hauling on the Dawn Wall last year?

I wouldn't think this system saves anything if you're bringing an extra rope - it works so you can haul when you get the anchor soloing like you do on a regular lead, without having to rap to the bags, clean the pitch, and then haul before you get a snack and drink. It is sometimes used to haul to Heart or Mammoth Ledge - because you can just jug up a fixed line and start hauling.

I'd love to hear what happened with Tommy's fifi.

Be careful up there!
Woot!
Erik
erik@yosemitebigwall.com

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Given Tommy's BD sponsored status, I'll bet he was using a BD fifi. I'll bet the rope was on a ledge and slide off, or pulled itself out of it's rope bag and popped the hook off. Those hooks should never be used to hang bags for soloing like we've been talking about here in this thread. They should only be used for daisy chain systems.

Erik Sloan · · Yosemite, CA · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 254

I don't know Mark - Tommy and Beth were sponsored by Petzl earlier I think. Chris Mac talked about Tommy having the Petzl hammer up on the Dawn Wall and it working really good for drilling bolts.

I'll try and track down the answer!

S E · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 878

Apologies for bumping a thread this old but I have a story that seems most relevant here. I used the petzl fifi and the slippery knot a bunch for solo hauling last spring. It released fine every time. There was one situation with it that could have been sketchy so I just want to share my experience here so hopefully no one else finds themselves in the same situation.

I had rappelled in around 300 meters down the wall to take photos. I didn’t want to have to jug out with the weight of that much rope and gear so I decided to use a fifi release and slippery knot

The first 2 hauls went smoothly. For the last one, there was a big ledge system at the anchor. It was around 10pm at this point and after being on the wall all day, I was tired and ready to get back to my bivy + food up top. I was using the rope I was jugging out on as the haul line. i was being lazy and did not shorten the haul line like I had on the previous hauls.  rather than stacking the excess rope in my rope bag, I quickly flaked the excess rope on the huge ledge. There was probably around 40m of slack in the rope.  I jugged out, set up the haul and pulled up what still felt like a lot of slack before I felt the bag. I started to haul and felt the slippery + fifi release with no problems. After hauling for a while, I noticed a rats nest in the weighted haul line getting close to me. My whole haul bag (thankfully only 50 pounds or so) was being supported by the rats nest. I was able to haul it up until the rats nest was close to me, transfer the load to a new pcd below then un-fuck the rats nest. The rats nest had around 15m of rope total in it but it was just a series of tangled loops with no actual knots 

I just wanted to share this so hopefully no one else makes a similar mistake with a multi-day solo load. I am psyched I didn’t learn what a small haul bag falling 15m onto static rope in a microtrax looks like  and I really don’t want to know or hear about what it looks like with a multiday load. Always take your time when stacking your haul line, preferably in a rope bag. The rope was also fairly new so I think some twist and kinks may have played a role

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Dang! That wouldn’t have had a good ending!

TaylorP · · Pump Haus, Sonora · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

I tried this method for hauling to Mammoth last week. The hook only came off the previous anchor once. The other times I had to rap down or was luckily enough that someone was rappelling down already. I had the fifi on a sling so that it was easier to dock onto the anchor. Maybe that's what messed it up? Any suggestions for how to make this work more often?

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981
TaylorP wrote:

I tried this method for hauling to Mammoth last week. The hook only came off the previous anchor once. The other times I had to rap down or was luckily enough that someone was rappelling down already. I had the fifi on a sling so that it was easier to dock onto the anchor. Maybe that's what messed it up? Any suggestions for how to make this work more often?

First of all was it a normal bdel fifi or the Petzl fifi with the open groove you put a mallion into?

If it's a normal fifi, they suck. Use a Petzl with the moving mallion. If it was a Petzl it could be the sling as a longer sling moves with the fifi and can defeat the angle to get the fifi hooked out of. For something like the heart lines, you can use the bolt hanger, or the quicklinks in the chain. For while on route I just use a biner. 

TaylorP · · Pump Haus, Sonora · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0
Kevin DeWeese wrote:

First of all was it a normal bdel fifi or the Petzl fifi with the open groove you put a mallion into?

If it's a normal fifi, they suck. Use a Petzl with the moving mallion. If it was a Petzl it could be the sling as a longer sling moves with the fifi and can defeat the angle to get the fifi hooked out of. For something like the heart lines, you can use the bolt hanger, or the quicklinks in the chain. For while on route I just use a biner. 

ah yeah it was the BD hook. Good to know, i'll snag the Petzl for the next Heart haul. Thanks!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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