An easy safety trick, do you do this?

leon wrote:first, you weight your rope, then you unclip your PAS

+2

This saved my neck once. I live in Brasil and not everyone I climb with speaks perfect English. I also don't speak perfect Portuguese. I was climbing with a partner who I trust quite a bit, but there was obvious miscommunication. At the bottom I told him he'd lower me, but he understood that I'd rappel. He started to take me off belay but I noticed and was also holding the rope. Had I not been holding the rope or not managed to get his attention (the latter of which was not as easy as saying, "hey don't do that!") then I would have decked from about 25m on bad terrain.

Shit happens and this is a pretty super simple thing to do. I don't do it all the time because I don't feel the need to, but I do it when I'm not sure if things were communicated properly or not (I also happen to have a short short-term memory at times). This is nothing new but it's good to know.

Ryan Nevius wrote: Done. That simple. Pull close to the chains, wait until your weight is supported by the belayer, unclip your tether (which shouldn't be taught at this point). No need to over-complicate.

A PAS is just an extra piece of gear that's mostly unnecessary. Do I use a tether that's not the rope? Sometimes, but mostly I use one when I'm a bit lazy or if I know that cleaning a particular anchor is going to be a pain in the ass without one. Otherwise, it's just added baggage. I've never used one just on TR when I knew I was going down without cleaning the anchor.

Wes Goulding wrote:Ryan-You are correct, of course, you are an administrator. Let me ask this another way. If you are at the anchor getting ready to be lowered, what do you do to insure your safety? There are several steps I immagine. You go through them and everything is good to go you are safe. You unclip your pas, sling or whatever you do. You let go of the anchor. You are in freefall. You are not on belay. You are going to the ground. That's what happened to each of these guys. They all thought they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Not just the leaders but the belayers too. They had a plan. They thought they were communicating. They thought everything was fine. What can be done at this point to save the day? Its a crazy hypothetical problem brain teaser. But it's not hypothetical. It happens. Two climbers I know, actual friends of mine as well as this person in the podcast had this happen. I do this almost everytime I'm lowered. Not a big deal. Nothing changes but my hand on the rope. Thanks for your consideration Wes

I am sympathetic to the emotions that come with having friends that got dropped. But it's not a "crazy" thing. It's not a freak accident. It happened because their plan was wrong. And because their communication was poor.

This is what I do:

- look my belayer in the eye and tell him my plan. I make him verbally answer me.
- i don't use the term "off belay" unless I want to be taken off belay, or if I am belaying, i only use it when I am phisically taking the rope out of the belay device. That term is meant to say (you're on your own now) and i won't climb with anyone who uses the term incorrectly.
- When i am being lowered, i say "take me... More... You got me?" At this point i must be firmly held by the climbing rope, AND have either visual or clear verbal confirmation that I am being held by my belayer. If any of these things are not clear I don't unclip. If my sling is not completely unweighted (read: flapping in the breeze) then I do not unclip. If there is any doubt in my mind that I am safe, I don't unclip.
- all of that and I still keep a hand on the rope sometimes

If I am unable to communicate with my parter but know he plans to lower me, i use the webbing that holds my chalk bag to make an autoblock and put it on the other side of the rope. I've only had to do that once though and it turns out I was on belay the whole time, there was just too much wind and rope drag for me to know for sure.

Most of that is juat being redundant, because like I said, the system we use works and it's not rocket science.

Just to be clear, I watched someone fall to their death once because of this exact type of error at the anchor. I know how it feels. That doesn't mean that I don't think they were responsible for what happened.

In the context of cleaning, I teach "The floppy test". Never remove yourself from any system until all of your weight is on another system, and the system to be disengaged is fully slack. That means I won't transfer weight to a lowering rope until it is taut and the cleaning slings are floppy. Works with rapelling and lowering. Easy to teach, easy to practice, always applicable.

In the context of cleaning, I teach "The floppy test". Never remove yourself from any system until all of your weight is on another system, and the system to be disengaged is fully slack. That means I won't transfer weight to a lowering rope until it is taut and the cleaning slings are floppy. Works with rapelling and lowering. Easy to teach, easy to practice, always applicable.

Bill Lawry wrote:I wonder how long I could hold on like that if my belayer didn't take over.

This.

I sure wouldn't want to lower myself 5 or 10 feet only to discover that my belayer was off in the trees somewhere answering the call of nature. I'd want to be at the anchor when I figured that out!

Oh man sorry that happened to you Ryan. Did you know that person? RIP.

These answers to this specific problem are great. I agree with you. I agree that waiting at the anchor for my belayer to take in all the slack and then pull more until my weight is taken and I can feel that through my harness is probably the #1 safe way to get this done. It is definitely safer then what I am doing for sure.

Leon, matt c, Ryan, Matt R and everyone else thanks.

You got me thinking this morning. Am I just lucky? I mean, is this thing I do actually dangerous? Is holding the other side more complex? Is this too much? Am I at risk, because I am trying to save time, expend less effort, increase climb time, reduce the work my belayer has to do and thus increase efficiency? Probably yes. IDK.

I have been doing this for so long it hardly seems like any extra work to me. In fact it seems like a lot less work for me and my belayers. It saves me time in a way that is less work and seems very safe to me. As far as I can tell there is no reason not to do this. I hesitate to say I won't change what I do. But I probably wont.

I am too close to this obviously. I have been climbing for a bit, just long enough to think I know something, but realise I know nothing, and might be wrong about everything. :)

Again great conversation. Thanks.

Wes

PS Optimistic- Yes of course. You would determine exactly what to do in a case by case basis. If its super steep and your pumped I would stay at the anchor clipped in. But if it's virtical or slabby you could lower a few feet easily. Remember you believe that you are on belay at this point.

Being a new climber I learned one thing on my own that has helped more for my safety than anything else. If you are going to unclip anything, it shouldn't be taut. It's been mentioned already, but bears repeating.

Also, why would you rappel if you have a TR setup in place? You should only be rappelling when you have to clean an anchor, and there shouldn't be any miscommunication about that. Unless you are TRing from the rap rings, but that's a whole different animal.

Don't forget, when you unclip always yell Free Bird

This isn't really a trick -- more like a good habit.

Eliot Augusto wrote: If you are going to unclip anything, it shouldn't be taut.

This too. I would add that you should always be aware what is clipped where, and never be in a too much of a hurry to clean, lest you unclip in the wrong order (before you are on belay or set up and weighted on your rappel device). Even when in the midst of an epic.

Wes,
How much time do you actually save? A few seconds? Why not fall, if you really want to shave seconds. You are already not communicating with your belayer, so they will catch you like a lead fall and you'll be down as far as the rope will let you, faster than you can lower yourself.

And what do you do with this time you save? A few seconds throught a day of climbing might add up to..,one minute? I've made my partner wait longer while I got my shoes on or took a crap.

Also, the idea of lowering myself, hand under hand, while moving, rope wizzing through my fingers...not appealing.

Consider whether you or other sportsmen would ever do this...is this how cavers lower themselves into a cave? Is this what you would do if the approach to a climb brought you to the top and you had to lower to reach the base? Maybe window washers do a variation of this, though without a separate belayer. Your method is not standard practice in these situations, and with good reason.

Grabbing the belayers side of the rope to arrest a fall in the event that they completely fail...could be a good idea, perhaps, but I think your idea is not common for a reason.

leon wrote:first, you weight your rope, then you unclip your PAS

+10 or whatever it is now

Nobody is lowering themselves using this technique. It is merely a check to make sure the belayer has your weight before committing to have your belayer lower you. For those that are talking about weighting your PAS (or however you are connected to the anchor) this technique may also prove useful when you are not cleaning the anchor; i.e. when you have just clipped into the anchor draws before being lowered. In that case you are not clipping into the anchor directly and you are just making sure that the belayer has taken your weight before committing to hang on the rope. If you are cleaning the anchor then of course it makes sense to stay clipped to the anchor until you are convinced your belayer has your weight.

There are times when this technique makes sense and times when it does not. There is nothing inherently wrong about doing this. In situations where communication is difficult, or when with an unfamiliar partner, it is wise to back yourself up prior to committing to be lowered. This is one of several options. Sometimes you can take the time and effort to actually clip into the anchors. Sometimes that is more difficult, you just don't want to (like being lowered directly off of anchor draws), or you just need to weight the rope before clipping in direct.

Maurice- I just realized something. Thanks for your post. I have edited my OP to say the following.

This "trick" is supposed to be used in ADDITION to all of your normal safety precautions. You still communicate, plan out, do everything you would normally do. You still call take, got me, whatever. All remains the same. In fact if your belayer already is pulling you up by your harness then don't do it (don't put your hand on the other side of the rope) This is to be used LAST. Like if you don't feel your belayer, or you can't actually hear each other.

Thanks again & sorry for any confusion.

Wes

PS There are times when this is not going to work. There are times when you don't need to do this. Sometimes this works great. You make that call.