Why can't we seem to push past v15?

It seems to me that whenever a problem is established by climbers such as Ondra or Dai Koyamada and is initially graded v16, it is always downgraded. I understand that other climbers may find the problem more fitting to their particular style, and therefore grade it easier but why can't we seem to push past v15?

Climbers such as D-Woods are sending the grade somewhat commonly these days. Wouldn't you feel that these athletes now have v16 potential?

I know that Ondra established "two v16s" last year but nobody seems to hold interest in repeating these. Based off the way things have been going, I can see these climbs also getting downgraded in future years.

So the question stands, what is holding the higher-level (professional) climbing community back from the hunt for the hardest boulder problem?

I personally think the body can only do so much until it reaches a cap. Holds can only get so small, moves to big to do, and positions the body can't do are also and probably the reason we can't push to a higher grade. There has to be a cap where we as humans can't physically do anymore. And I think we might be there.

"we"??

I'm guessing it is because of a lack of talent, strength, and technique. Oh....you meant a different "we".

It is probably the grades deflating some. It wasn't very long ago when V10 was considered really hard. 5 grades is a huge jump.

Why can't I seem to push past .12- ?

Jon Zucco wrote:Why can't I seem to push past .12- ?

lose 5lbs. that's what I did

RNclimber wrote:I personally think the body can only do so much until it reaches a cap. Holds can only get so small, moves to big to do, and positions the body can't do are also and probably the reason we can't push to a higher grade. There has to be a cap where we as humans can't physically do anymore. And I think we might be there.

That's been the common thought for decades..... Then somebody comes along and smashes through the glass ceiling..... Rinse and repeat.

When you consider how many athletes put their skills toward rockclimbing, it's miniscule. Personally I don't think we have even come close to any such limit. V20 anyone!

rocknice2 wrote: That's been the common thought for decades..... Then somebody comes along and smashes through the glass ceiling..... Rinse and repeat. When you consider how many athletes put their skills toward rockclimbing, it's miniscule. Personally I don't think we have even come close to any such limit. V20 anyone!

Well it wasn't that long ago that Nalle decided that he was tired of repeating things (V14-15) and has since been putting up FAs of the same (or harder) left and right. Maybe Jimmy Webb will do the same soon? Stop trouncing everyone else's problems, and start making his own test pieces.

To add to it, anyone remember what Ondra said about route developing? Something to the effect of "Finding really hard lines is easy, finding really hard lines that you can do? Not so much." That muddles things a bit. Maybe there's a handful of V16 and above out there, but getting the right person to the right chunk of rock out there is a matter of luck, dedication etc.

M Sprague wrote:It is probably the grades deflating some. It wasn't very long ago when V10 was considered really hard. 5 grades is a huge jump.

some deflation for sure but at the same time it wasnt as normal to try a pebble 100s/1000s of times for a send. people didnt fly around the world to climb boulders, it was just a way to train and fuck around locally on rest days

Is gioia v16? It does make you wonder, if Daniel Woods or Nalle, or Ondra worked one supremely hard boulder like Tommy Caldwell works the Dawn Wall, we'd see more v16+.

Seems like the boulder guys freak out after 2 or 3 weeks on a problem. I know there are exceptions, but like its been stated, a lot of the v15 are repeated with a weeks work.

Seems strange that the top of the scale can be done that fast.

Mike Belu wrote:It does make you wonder, if Daniel Woods or Nalle, or Ondra worked one supremely hard boulder like Tommy Caldwell works the Dawn Wall, we'd see more v16+.

You got that backwards. TC realized he needs to boulder more to able to execute a hard move way above the ground. The "supremely hard" boulder isn't so hard for Kevin Jorgeson, who came from a bouldering background. Trust me, the elite boulderers try way hard, but the nature of generating maximum power just does not afford you many good attempts each day.

Mike Belu wrote:Is gioia v16? It does make you wonder, if Daniel Woods or Nalle, or Ondra worked one supremely hard boulder like Tommy Caldwell works the Dawn Wall, we'd see more v16+. Seems like the boulder guys freak out after 2 or 3 weeks on a problem. I know there are exceptions, but like its been stated, a lot of the v15 are repeated with a weeks work. Seems strange that the top of the scale can be done that fast.

a big difference is length. Regardless of difficulty, 10 moves is going to take less time (at your limit) than several hundred (at your [aggregate] limit).

BTW Dylan, Ondra's 16 besides Gioia was a pretty contrived traverse. It kinda makes sense that it didn't get repeated because it lacks aesthetic appeal. Gioia has, on the other hand, been repeated twice.

I'm not doubting that they try very hard while making their attempts. I do wonder if they are quicker to call a problem unclimbable, and move on to another V14 or V15 that can be finished in a short timespan. I recognize they are elite and have a lot of respect for their abilities.

I saw where Dave Graham has a project that would link two v15 problems, he has finished the second portion of it. If that one gets done, who knows what it would be graded at.

i would be pretty surprised if TC has worked the pitches on dawn wall any more times than an elite boulderer works a hard problem. think about it - he has to head out to the valley, get good weather, get up to the pitch, work it, rest - etc. he is also juggling a bunch of hard pitches, as well as doing the usual wall chores. i would be curious to see how many solid efforts he is able to get in on a single pitch in a one month period. keep in mind that these could be monster pitches that take a long rest to recover from between burns.

now contrast that to a hard boulder problem, for example 'the game' in boulder canyon. take a quick drive up the canyon, put in some efforts, the weather isn't near as a much of an issue, drive back down the canyon, get a good rest, etc. for short power problems you can also get more quality efforts in, as they don't require as long recovery periods between burns. (note that i am not in any way degrading the effort of sending a hard boulder problem, merely pointing out that it makes sense logistically that the increased number of potential efforts will enable harder boulder problems than long wall pitches).

if you look at it over a year's time, the boulder problem is infinitely more accessible and will probably get a lot more quality efforts.

now why can't we get past v15? i can't really answer that. all i can say is that i see problems in the gym that i am simply unable to calculate a physical possibility of climbing. i literally look at the problem and see "#N/A". then i see somebody float it. perhaps in 10 years they will look at a problem and find it impossible, and somebody with enhanced vision will find a way.

Good points on the accessibility and number of actual climbing attempts, slim.

I'm sure V15 is only a temporary ceiling, much like 5.7 was (probably in the 30's)and 5.10 was decades later.

Five years from now we'll be talking about V17 as the ceiling nobody can seem to surpass.

I'm not sure at what age today's elite level climbers started climbing, but I'd guess at around 10 years old on average. That isn't very early. At 10 years old some children with Olympic aspirations and an insane commitment level of training are already deeply conditioned in their chosen sport. I may be wrong, but I doubt there's much "training" at a comparable level for young climbers. It also seem like "proper" training for climbing is still a relatively young venture. I think the onslaught of new training facilities and growing popularity of climbing will put more younger climbers at the higher end of bouldering with a greater number rising to the top and pushing the grades. Better training at a younger age should help get it over V17. Bring on the spray, younguns!

BackCountry wrote:I'm not sure at what age today's elite level climbers started climbing, but I'd guess at around 10 years old on average. That isn't very early. At 10 years old some children with Olympic aspirations and an insane commitment level of training are already deeply conditioned in their chosen sport. I may be wrong, but I doubt there's much "training" at a comparable level for young climbers. It also seem like "proper" training for climbing is still a relatively young venture. I think the onslaught of new training facilities and growing popularity of climbing will put more younger climbers at the higher end of bouldering with a greater number rising to the top and pushing the grades. Better training at a younger age should help get it over V17. Bring on the spray, younguns!

That's a good point. I doubt really anyone beyond the Rabatous and Horst's were actually training at a younger age. The rest were probably just climbing a bit. Even Eric Horst says that he didn't have his kids training for a while and that even now, they're playing other sports on the side. I don't know when Ondra started climbing but if you took someone with his mentality at the age that, for example elite gymnasts start training, the next level would be approached. One problem (and I mean problem as in a barrier, not that I think this mindset is a bad thing), is that climber parents are probably a little more chill than elite gymnast parents, so forcing kids to do fingerboarding at age 4 isn't generally going to happen.

Eventually physics will take over and that will be the permanent ceiling. Then we will need to wait to evolve suction pads like lizards have.

Here's a question... is V15 REALLY V15? Jimmy Webb, Dave Graham, Nalle, Adam Ondra, and probably more have all done V14 in a day or even a session, and V15 VERY QUICKLY by any standard, yet NONE have done confirmed V16. Why is this? Over a scale that contains 15 seperat number ratings, I would argue that V15 doesn't exist, that the V scale is broken, and something needs to change.

Joe Gregoire wrote:I'm sure V15 is only a temporary ceiling, much like 5.7 was (probably in the 30's)and 5.10 was decades later. Five years from now we'll be talking about V17 as the ceiling nobody can seem to surpass.

Slightly off topic, but this isn't accurate. read up on some of the early climbing history (e.g. John Gill's website ) There were people climbing stuff in 1900s and 1910s that's currently rated 5.9 or 5.10, and bouldering in the V2 range in Font by 1934.

I think we'll need new levels of HD video so we can be impressed by the super-tiny holds on the next V16.