1st Big Wall with Guide or Buy a Portaledge?

Have been climbing off and on for 15 years...feel comfortable on 5.9 Sport and 5.5-5.7 Trad. Learning multi-pitch and have a pretty solid rack (BD C4's .5-4, OP Link Cams Doubles, BD X4's .2-.5 Doubles, lots-o-nuts.)

I plan to climb big walls over the next few years and am working to get started. I don't have a climbing partner that has big wall or multi-pitch experience...and am looking to head to Zion's in the Sept/Oct time frame this year. Zion Mountain School offers an AMGA instructor lead 3 day Big Wall course...including a day of Aid/Trad, then MoonLight Buttress or the equivalent...$1,395. The experience and knowledge will be great with the course...but, for the cost, and if I could find the right experienced climbing partner...I could buy a Double Ledge and more gear and get in another trip or two.

Opinions? I don't see many posts on first big wall experiences with a guide.

Live in the Phoenix AZ Area...pretty flexible schedule if anyone is down for a trip to Cochise or Prescott for some multi-pitch easy Trad or Aid?

First, let me say that aid is not my thing. AT ALL.

However, one of my best climbing partners has been bitten by the aid bug. He is totally focused on doing El Cap solo. To achieve this, he has relentlessly read everything he can find about aid systems online. He has asked a few questions, but mostly he has taught himself. He spends hours setting up hauling systems and rehearsing various scenarios on the ground. To practice, he does laps on some of the aid ladders at small local crag. He is getting all of his systems dialed in, and learning how to be efficient. His thoughts are that the best way to learn is to figure it out by yourself. In his case, it is working.

Keep in mind he experienced and has solid gear placement skills. He has done a ton of multi-pitch stuff and is a strong climber. If you don't have that foundation, I would not recommend the DIY method. From what I have seen, if you know your stuff with gear, are safe and have a better than average level of mechanical aptitude and common sense, you can learn a TON on your own. YMMV, but I would not pay $1400 for 3 days of instruction.

If you want to get into aid climbing you're going to have to invest time, and lots of it. Everything you learn in a 3 day course won't mean shit if you don't keep getting out afterwards. personally I'd say read articles and threads going through systems and teach yourself. Aid soloing is really easy. I think it's a better way to learn as you don't end up feeling bad about wasting your partners time on those initial 4 hour C1 leads. Soloing also gives you a leg up when you want to use techniques like short fixing or getting established on El Cap while you're partner has yet to arrive.

If you have the means to drop the cash for a guide then you should. The knowledge they possess will greatly benefit you. My experience with walls (which is admittedly limited) says that much equipment needed can be borrowed from other folks. I'd say wait on getting the ledge and invest that money into a 3-day course with a guide. Like Kenan said, aid climbing and gaining the experience takes time and lots of practice- aid soloing is a great way to develop these skills but be sure you know exactly what you're getting into. Hiring a guide in Zion will give you a the skills and practical application needed to pursue aid climbing and wall climbing- it will also give you an opportunity to see if you actually want to continue with it.

The product those guys offer at ZMS is unique and an amazing way learn aid climbing. Make it worth your while and get on a couple walls beforehand, so that you have experience and questions. Don't buy a ledge, owning a ledge will not teach you how to aid climb.

I used to do aid/walls. I would still like to do more, but don't have a partner for it. In Yosemite, I crossed paths with guys that had used a guide to learn wall climbing, and they were really bad. As mentioned above, you have to put out the time and effort yourself. No quick fixes available on this sort of thing.
I'm in Flagstaff. Paradise Forks is a perfect place to learn/refine clean aid skills. It is only single pitch, but has steep, clean, cracks without many ledges. I practiced there before heading to do walls at Zion and Yosemite.
I'd like to get back into aid climbing actually, and don't mind teaching someone new, since you've been climbing for a long time. If you are interested, PM me to see if our schedules and goals might be similar.
Tom

Skip the ledge. You will probably not need it for a long time. A guide may be able to teach you aid, but really it is not rocket science. PIck up the Jared Ogden Book, or the Supertopo "How to Bigwall CLimb". THrow up a toprope and solo aid some stuff. Learn to solo-aid and run up some easy continuous cracks. Concentrate on getting efficient and fast while leading and cleaning, and learn to haul efficiently.

Up your free climbing game while you're at it. The more you can free or even A0 on a wall, the faster and better off you will be.

Thanks for the advice guys. I will wait till Sept/Oct to make a decision on the course. Several smaller areas I can work on Aid and gear placements/anchor building/trad for the summer. Would be great to get some trips up to Flag and some time in at paradise forks Tom! Thanks for the offer and will get in touch.

The best thing you can do to get ready for walls is to get comfortable leading at least 5.8-5.9 trad, and to do lots of mileage on long multipitch trad routes - Red Rocks is excellent for that.

I think a guided wall would be a waste of money until you get to this point unless you want to get yarded up one wall and call it good.

Lots of good, honest comments so far, Leonard.

imho getting guided up a wall is going to be nothing like doing a wall with a partner. With a partner is tougher, but, again imho, so much more rewarding.

For what it's worth... watch the weather for Cochise. With the temps lately, it's getting into the hot part of the year for climbing there. Also check out the falcon bans on some walls (Rockfellow Group, etc.)

And re your comment on multipitch in Prescott. Heads up that, while probably an excellent training ground for this sort of thing, Granite Mountain is currently closed for peregrine falcons until July 15th.

Remember a large part of getting up walls is having a strong mental game.
Happy big-walling!

very cool...more experience, up my game to at least 5.8 - 5.9 trad and multi-pitch...and try not to scare the poor birds off the AZ walls! If anyone is heading out Aid Soloing in AZ some time in the near future, PM me...would really like to come out and watch/learn!

I think the deciding factor in this situation is money. If you can afford it take the big wall course. However, if the choice is between the course or buying a ledge and other aid climbing essentials (aid ladders, haul bag, swivel, hauling device, etc.). I would definitely purchase the gear. However, if you can afford both why not make it up a wall on your 1st try. I would definitely insist on being on the sharp end/leading if you purchase the course.

There is nothing wrong with taking a class, but know that you dont absolutely need it. As with pretty much everything, you can learn the basics about aid climbing on Supertopo and from an aid climbing book. When I decided I wanted to climb El Cap I trained exclusively from information I learned on Supertopo and from wall climbing books. I dident have a partner that was experienced in aid, and in fact, most of the time I just soloed because not many people want to belay someone on aid (it's really slow).

Basically, when I decided I wanted to climb a wall I went onto Supertopo and watched the "How to climb big wall" video and article series, and I practiced EVERYTHING. I printed it all out and practiced everything, in order, at the crag. I then bought a few big wall climbing books and practiced everything in there too. I practiced over and over until I got better and faster. After much practice, I showed up to Yosemite, practiced more aid for a few days, and then climbed The Nose. It worked out great for me. The key with aid is practice, practice, practice. The methods are kind of complicated, and so a lack of experience in the area will leave you fiddle fucking with gear, thus adding entire days to your climb time. Your goal, once you learn the basics, should be to try to move as fast as possible. The faster you can move, the higher the chances of success.

If you do go with a guide, I would not take any "class." Instead, learn the basics of aid on your own, and then once you feel you have a solid grasp on basic wall techniques, instead pay a guide to take you up a legit grade V wall. It would probably cost roughly the same, but you would likely learn more since you would actually be wall climbing, as opposed to learning aid on a single pitch climb or whatever else you would do in a class. It's one thing to learn about wall climbing on the ground, it's another to be up there actually doing it.

20 kN wrote: If you do go with a guide, I would not take any "class." Instead, learn the basics of aid on your own, and then once you feel you have a solid grasp on basic wall techniques, instead pay a guide to take you up a legit grade V wall. It would probably cost roughly the same, but you would likely learn more since you would actually be wall climbing, as opposed to learning aid on a single pitch climb or whatever else you would do in a class. It's one thing to learn about wall climbing on the ground, it's another to be up there actually doing it.

Don't buy a ledge! Only buy one when you have a project that demands it, and you can't borrow or rent one. Not very many big walls in your range that do. When you break into 5.8's and 9's you'll find a ledge to be more helpful, and in 10's it will be fairly common. Spend your cash on a quality mid sized haul bag, jug gear, and other aid specifics. The rest for gas to and from all the aid practice you'll do.

Craig Childre wrote:Don't buy a ledge! Only buy one when you have a project that demands it, and you can't borrow or rent one. Not very many big walls in your range that do. When you break into 5.8's and 9's you'll find a ledge to be more helpful, and in 10's it will be fairly common. Spend your cash on a quality mid sized haul bag, jug gear, and other aid specifics. The rest for gas to and from all the aid practice you'll do.

Suggest you dump the heavy Gri Gri and get a mega Jul!

You will probably want way more gear too!
20 -40 additional biners
4-6 additional lockers
a set of offset nuts
a set of brass micro nuts
a set of offset X-4's or Alien type offset
Maybe a few, or a set of C-3's
Pro Traxion
Aiders
daisy chains
grappling hook or cliff hanger
fifi hook
rurp
set of pitons
set of peckers
a couple more alpine draws

List is only a suggestion to fill in gaps that I think your rack has... very least, this is most of what I would acquire before thinking about a ledge or guide service.

csproul wrote: Huh? LOL a portaledge is common on all those 5.10 climbs!

Craig Childre wrote: You do know this is a discussion about 'big wall' climbing?

csproul wrote: Huh? LOL a portaledge is common on all those 5.10 climbs!