13 Dead on Everest

Spotted this a few minutes ago:
channelnewsasia.com/news/as… .

^^^^ Rich white people can't be asked to carry their own stuff!

FYI, IME Western climbers, especially American were among the best at picking up their own trash in Nepal. They were among the best at not generating trash in the first place too. Along the Annapurna circuit, and on the approach to basecamps there are tons of villages where tourists eat and lodge. They usually had "trash cans", but some of the Nepali and Eastern tourists weren't as good about picking up their own litter. Even the base camp staff for expeditions. Anything burnable gets burned in the kitchen stove. A lot of stuff gets buried. There is no trash pickup service. The walk out can be weeks and none of the locals are going to haul trash out and the use of jeeps and donkeys is at a premium and trash doesn't pay. Maybe that needs to change.

Basecamps and the mountains are not nearly as bad as the trekking circuits. The worst offender IMO are plastic and glass bottles along the trekking circuits. Most buy bottled water and bottle beers along the circuits. These bottles are not taken out of the area and they are not recycled. The effort and (lack of) reward is just not worth it to the locals. From what I saw most of it just gets buried. There are some large scale water filters along the circuits but not enough of them and a lot of tourists don't use them or don't trust them. When bottled water is available, few trekkers and climbers are wiling to filter or boil their own water. And beer is a popular drink in the villages; the locals go to great lengths to stock it even in the highest villages.

It's a noble thought to do a 8000m peak and leave zero trash. Seriously. Let me know how that goes. I tried my best to pack my trash and dispose of it in an appropriate place. But who really knows where it goes when you dump it in a trashcan, even in Kathmandu much less in Chyakhu. THe harder proposition is convincing the support crew (porters, Sherpa, locals in villages etc....) that it is worth while too. But I guess you'll probably make up all your 8000m peaks with no support whatsoever, so you won't have to worry about it.

ChefMattThaner wrote: Yes, I am the one "preaching" to not leave behind trash on a beautiful mountain and fair treatment of the sherpas. I am not surprised that people find this offensive. I am telling them their accomplishments are tainted, and don't mean as much as they thought it did. I would be pissed too. But in all seriousness, this is a serious issue that the majority of climbers are not owning up to. We issue fines for people that leave behind a single water bottle in a campsite in this country because we understand the importance of leaving no trace. Why do we all of a sudden abandon these principles because it all of a sudden gets harder?? I guess I would love to know why great climbers and mountaineers choose to desecrate a culture and a mountain all in the name of conquering the summit?? I understand it would be extremely difficult if not nearly impossible to climb everest without seige tactics. But isn't that the point? Shouldn't it be really really hard, and only allow the absolute best of the best to climb it? I apologize if what I said was in any way unsupportive of other climbers endeavors. I think people should be able to climb in a variety of manners, aid, trad, sport, big wall, expedition style. I see how some of my comments could have been seen as disrespectful to these peoples choices. I did not mean that at all and I did get off topic several times. None of these styles require leaving behind the majority of what you brought with you. Why do we allow these people to continue to give a bad name to mountaineering? Apparentely I am the only one that sees leaving trash and dead bodies behind as a bad thing. I guess I am the crazy asshole who has no idea what he is talking about because he decided to wait for his Nepalese climbing career until he could do it without desecrating the mountain at the same time. You are all correct, I have not climbed above 8000m yet. But I promise you I will before long, and I will do it without leaving behind a single piece of trash. I will not even consider an expedition until I am capable enough to accomplish this. Not saying this makes me better than anyone or more capable than anyone. But it sure makes whatever mountain I climb that much better for those whom climb after me. This is not for selfish reasons. It is so people can see what I saw without a landfill blocking the view. I'm guessing future generations are going to be much happier following my routes than anything you "seige expedition" hikers have ruined. Lets allow history to judge us, not eachother.

Translation-

"blah, blah, blah...I'm better than all of you....blah, blah, blah....Just you wait and see!"

Thanks for the LNT link, nothing there I haven't seen before. But good principles nevertheless.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Translation- "blah, blah, blah...I'm better than all of you....blah, blah, blah....Just you wait and see!" Thanks for the LNT link, nothing there I haven't seen before. But good principles nevertheless.

You bad ass you Mark, tell us all more about your garbage leaving treks in Nepal again! Please!!!

I may not ever end up going because I may end up not being capable of doing this. But I will try and for that is what really matters. I may not ever get above 8000m in my life, like the vast majority of mountaineers. But at least I can say I did not desecrate a perfectly natural area with my trash and pollutants trying to get there. You might be right, I am not a superior mountaineer in many ways to those that have already climbed everest. They know things and have seen things I have yet to experience. However, the one thing my way has going for it that the common seige tactics don't... No one else has to walk through my piles of shit to get to the top. This by no means makes me a better climber, better person or better mountaineer. But I have profound respect for those who are able to live a lifetime of LNT in the high alpine environments we are visitors of. This above all else is the most important aspect of enjoying the outdoors. I realize that is not everyone's prerogative, but don't you think anything less is at least a little bit selfish?

I'm guessing you do not have kids Mark?? It seems you are lacking a vision for the future. God forbid you think about people climbing, 10, 20, 100 years from now. On those same Nepalese treks you threw your glass bottles on the ground without a second thought. All the garbage you probably threw into the crevasses that is going to end up down the hill in the local village in a few decades. All the shit you refused to pack out and dispose of properly....

But that's ok, because I mean it's like really really high, and like super hard to breathe up there!! Gosh, I mean you people have no idea what it is like up there so you have no reason telling us what we are doing is wrong! Right?? Since you have yet to spend a normal persons yearly salary to visit the worlds highest landfill/graveyard you have no right to decide what is good for the enviroment!! Right???

Just like coal miners in the 50's, they made the same bullshit arguments. "we are putting our lives at risk everyday, you people have never been down there before you have no idea what it is like." So therefore they could not abide by simple environmental standards put in place by "people with no idea what they are talking about simply because they haven't been there". When all along the environmental concerns were real, and the very simple things we were asking them to do made a HUUUUGGGGEE impact on the environment in those areas. Kinda like taking LNT. Very very simple things that you simply choose to abandon when the going gets tough.

Guess what Mark, I do not have to travel to Charleston West Virginia to tell you that coal scrubbing cancer causing chemicals spilling into the towns water supply is bad for people and the enviroment. I am not a chemical engineer, a hydrologist, or a doctor. But I would be surprised if you could find me one person in either of those professions that would disagree with my generalization of the situation as "unhealthy". Just as you are saying that because I have never been there I have no idea what it's like. You are right, but you know one thing I can guarantee you, leaving trash behind in a natural enviroment is detrimental for a number of reasons. Can you name any of the reasons pollution is detrimental to the enviroment Mark? especially extremely fragile high alpine environments??

It's pretty funny to see someone preach about littering to people who I've seen frequently pick up and pack out trash that other climbers had left in the mountains. Not to mention all of the other extremely ironic statements/assumptions you're making.

Jon Zucco wrote:It's pretty funny to see someone preach about littering to people who I've seen frequently pick up and pack out trash that other climbers had left in the mountains. Not to mention all of the other extremely ironic statements/assumptions you're making.

Well sorry but mark has yet to regal me with his stories of packing out trash. he has only so far told me about his experience leaving trash behind in Nepal. Only going off what he gives me.

ChefMattThaner wrote: Well sorry but mark has yet to regal me with his stories of packing out trash. he has only so far told me about his experience leaving trash behind in Nepal. Only going off what he gives me.

This guy is hilarious. Keep him going

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.”
¯ Lao Tzu, Tao Teh Ching

LinecookMatt,

Don't you have some burgers to flip?

SDY wrote: This guy is hilarious. Keep him going

... just get him into therapy... he needs it.

ChefMattThaner wrote: You bad ass you Mark, tell us all more about your garbage leaving treks in Nepal again! Please!!! I may not ever end up going because I may end up not being capable of doing this. But I will try and for that is what really matters. I may not ever get above 8000m in my life, like the vast majority of mountaineers. But at least I can say I did not desecrate a perfectly natural area with my trash and pollutants trying to get there. You might be right, I am not a superior mountaineer in many ways to those that have already climbed everest. They know things and have seen things I have yet to experience. However, the one thing my way has going for it that the common seige tactics don't... No one else has to walk through my piles of shit to get to the top. This by no means makes me a better climber, better person or better mountaineer. But I have profound respect for those who are able to live a lifetime of LNT in the high alpine environments we are visitors of. This above all else is the most important aspect of enjoying the outdoors. I realize that is not everyone's prerogative, but don't you think anything less is at least a little bit selfish? I'm guessing you do not have kids Mark?? It seems you are lacking a vision for the future. God forbid you think about people climbing, 10, 20, 100 years from now. On those same Nepalese treks you threw your glass bottles on the ground without a second thought. All the garbage you probably threw into the crevasses that is going to end up down the hill in the local village in a few decades. All the shit you refused to pack out and dispose of properly.... But that's ok, because I mean it's like really really high, and like super hard to breathe up there!! Gosh, I mean you people have no idea what it is like up there so you have no reason telling us what we are doing is wrong! Right?? Since you have yet to spend a normal persons yearly salary to visit the worlds highest landfill/graveyard you have no right to decide what is good for the enviroment!! Right??? Just like coal miners in the 50's, they made the same bullshit arguments. "we are putting our lives at risk everyday, you people have never been down there before you have no idea what it is like." So therefore they could not abide by simple environmental standards put in place by "people with no idea what they are talking about simply because they haven't been there". When all along the environmental concerns were real, and the very simple things we were asking them to do made a HUUUUGGGGEE impact on the environment in those areas. Kinda like taking LNT. Very very simple things that you simply choose to abandon when the going gets tough. Guess what Mark, I do not have to travel to Charleston West Virginia to tell you that coal scrubbing cancer causing chemicals spilling into the towns water supply is bad for people and the enviroment. I am not a chemical engineer, a hydrologist, or a doctor. But I would be surprised if you could find me one person in either of those professions that would disagree with my generalization of the situation as "unhealthy". Just as you are saying that because I have never been there I have no idea what it's like. You are right, but you know one thing I can guarantee you, leaving trash behind in a natural enviroment is detrimental for a number of reasons. Can you name any of the reasons pollution is detrimental to the enviroment Mark? especially extremely fragile high alpine environments??

Yeah, I'm a pretty bad person.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly have you contributed to help Sherpas?

The AAC Sherpa fund seems pretty promising.

Wait...so now it's all about the environment?

What happened to:

ChefMattThaner wrote: People climb harder peaks every year without these tactics. And even in your so called "himalayan culture". It is possible to execute an expedition style ascent with lots of equipment and long trips without employing others to do all the heavy lifting. Even at that go ahead have someone carry your shit the whole way. BUT FOR GODS SAKE STOP USING LADDERS AND FIXED ROPES AND CALLING IT CLIMBING.

and:

ChefMattThaner wrote:So many reasons, I also get really mad at the local news when a hiker slips and falls down a 14er and they always report it as a "climber" died on x mountain.

I thought it was about people diluting the spray pool with their not-actual-climbing-based spray? That's the type of thing I can get behind.

The environment in the Himalayas? Meh. I bet there are some rad sport lines up there just waiting to be bolted.