Is Clipping into Rappel Rings an acceptable practice?

I happen to be of the opinion that clipping into rappel rings is bad etiquette and causes unnecessary wear. What is your opinion and why?

When I started climbing I was taught that in general, you should avoid clipping metal onto metal when possible, and you shouldn't clip metal onto a piece of gear that you plan on having your rope run through. (Quick draws have a designated biner for the hanger and one for the rope; to extend draws, we clip two draws together by the dogbone, not biner to biner; etc.)

My physics brain tells me that clipping metal to metal wears on the gear and will eventually damage the equipment, leaving small burs that can damage or fray a rope. For this reason it seems logical that you shouldn't clip directly into rappel rings.

I recently had a man who I believed to be a guide and someone very knowledgeable tell me that clipping into rappel rings is "fine" and "people do it all the time". I have been thinking about this and although I generally disagree with him, I know that stainless steel (rappel rings) is a harder material than aluminum (biners) and it may be unlikely that the rings would be damaged, though I'm not sure on this.

I would like to hear other points of view on this to gain a better understanding on this topic.

No problem clipping into an anchor's rappel rings. The issue comes from rope abrasion. A biner clipped into a ring doesn't abrade. Further, the rounded steel ring will not be damaged or burred by an aluminum carabiner. In fact, I would hazard a guess that a burred biner would benefit from being clipped to a round ring and weighted - it might actually deburr the carabiner.

And where did the "no clipping metal to metal" thing come from? You clip biners to bolt hangers all the time, no? Do they ever pop off in a fall? Of course not. The actual issue is metal with a gate to to other metal with a gate. In other words, don't clip 2 carabiners together (when free climbing) but a biner to ring or biner to hanger is both fine and per manufacturer's spec. (Note: all this goes out the window with aid climbing. Then you clip anything and everything to all the things).

Are you clipping in on rappels or as an anchor? I personally wouldn't worry about it on rappels. If I thought we might be taking some big falls on an anchor I might think twice about it.

The issue with bolt hangers is sharp edges on the, which do create distinct sharp burrs on the inside of a bolt end carabiner. A smooth 'biner on a smooth rap ring isn't likely to cause problems. In that case it's more likely that the rope sharpened rap ring will damage a carabiner, especially with a harder ring.

I also try to preserve the bolts and fixed pins, by untying and threading the rope through the piton eye or bolt hole before tying back in again.
It's the least a considerate climber should do.
FWIW, I also thread my dog's leash through the second or third bolt, so that they can't bother people on the ground.

There was a long thread on this a while back discussing this bizzarre idea.
mountainproject.com/v/how-t…

You must have failed physics because steel is harder than aluminum...

The only time I'd worry about it is if you are on a multipitch climb and a descending party may need those rings you've tied up.

Adam Lee Mills wrote:My physics brain tells me that clipping metal to metal wears on the gear and will eventually damage the equipment, leaving small burs that can damage or fray a rope. For this reason it seems logical that you shouldn't clip directly into rappel rings.

Your physics brain should tell you the wear will be more so on your carabiner than on the rap rings. Aluminum on steel is going to wear the Aluminum faster, so if they want to wear their personal biners faster let them. Just like biners wear way faster than the hangers on sport routes.

The problem is more of etiquette than of wear an tear. If someone is rapping that route they shouldn't have to dick around with your biners on rap rings they are looking to use. Clip the chains or the hanger. Keep the rings open for others to use. So yes…its an acceptable practice, but a dick move.

Nah, no problem, clip those suckers.

Steel-> clip them if you want. People are getting absurd about perceived wear if they are worrying about an aluminum biner wearing out a steel ring. Aluminum rings = don't clip into them if you can help it. They are weak crap. Only use them for rappelling.

M Sprague wrote:Steel-> clip them if you want. People are getting absurd about perceived wear if they are worrying about an aluminum biner wearing out a steel ring. Aluminum rings = don't clip into them if you can help it. They are weak crap. Only use them for rappelling.

Just a point of clarification:

Not all aluminum rings are created equal. The old SMC-style rolled aluminum rings are weak crap. The thick OP bar stock aluminum rap rings are bomb-proof.

Metal to Metal isn't bad at all. Metal to nylon is better. The 'don't do it' I learned... Nylon to Nylon!

On rap rings, I avoid clipping into the rings, and use the higher chain links or hangers if possible. Mostly so who ever cleans the anchor can thread the rap rings free from interference of the biners. I usually rap off the rap ring instead of being lowered, so only an unloaded rope runs through the ring.

Derek Doucet wrote:The thick OP bar stock aluminum rap rings are bomb-proof.

They start out life robust, to be sure. But, they are still just aluminum, so, if doing anchor replacement/enhancement, the steel ones will take the wear of pulling/lowering with a dirty rope through them much, much better.

Steel is real.

Brian in SLC wrote: They start out life robust, to be sure. But, they are still just aluminum, so, if doing anchor replacement/enhancement, the steel ones will take the wear of pulling/lowering with a dirty rope through them much, much better. Steel is real.

No argument from me, that's for sure. My response was intended to be taken in the context of the OP, i.e. that somehow clipping any aluminum rap ring is a poor practice. In terms of BEST practices for high traffic anchors, I agree 100% that steel (high quality stainless steel to be more specific) is the responsible choice.

Craig Childre wrote:Metal to nylon is better. The 'don't do it' I learned... Nylon to Nylon!

That brings up another question I had in mind. Is looping nylon to nylon bad practice? Why or why not?

I was talking to a friend about this a couple days ago and he mentioned he heard that they could rip through each other if loaded too much, though we weren't sure of the validity of that.

Also, along similar lines, how do you guys feel about looping anchor slings through your belay loop? Is it better to loop your slings through your two rope loops?

Adam Lee Mills wrote: That brings up another question I had in mind. Is looping nylon to nylon bad practice? Why or why not? I was talking to a friend about this a couple days ago and he mentioned he heard that they could rip through each other if loaded too much, though we weren't sure of the validity of that. Also, along similar lines, how do you guys feel about looping anchor slings through your belay loop? Is it better to loop your slings through your two rope loops?

go get some professional instruction before you get yourself killed

Clip into the hangers and RAP from the rings

They are called rap rings for a reason

john strand wrote:Clip into the hangers and RAP from the rings They are called rap rings for a reason

and that's a wrap.

Adam Lee Mills wrote: That brings up another question I had in mind. Is looping nylon to nylon bad practice? Why or why not? I was talking to a friend about this a couple days ago and he mentioned he heard that they could rip through each other if loaded too much, though we weren't sure of the validity of that. Also, along similar lines, how do you guys feel about looping anchor slings through your belay loop? Is it better to loop your slings through your two rope loops?

All this has been debated ad nauseum previously and searching will yield the wide variety of answers.

Nylon to nylon or dyneema or any fiber material at least if loose is a bad idea. Fibers melt with friction substantially reducing the strength. In my mind this has to be a continuum of ok and functional to terrible. What else is a knot of two joined ropes? How else could I ever tie a loop of webbing? So in my mind (this may not be right, don't sue me) if the slippage can be minimized it is acceptable.

About your second question, I've done both, and guess what? It's a synthetic fiber material to a synthetic fiber material. I've even *shock* tied into the middle of a rope and used a carabiner to attach my harness to it. Related to that question is the question of how to attach yourself to an anchor on a multi pitch route and all the pros/cons of just clove hitching yourself with the rope to your master point.

Climbing with more experienced people (who hopefully don't have bad habit) is definitely recommended. Pick up some well regarded books as well (this at least gives you the author's consistent view point). If you can afford it, go get professional instruction and be very open that you really want to learn skills, not just climb that day. I mention that last since many people are unwilling to drop that kind of cash (note the term unwilling vice unable since I don't want to judge individual people's priorities, much).

Ryan Kempf wrote: Someone had to be a douche bag! Ryte?

Wow....

You have brought a new level of douchery with that comment. Why dont you go back to the gym NOOB

john strand wrote:Clip into the hangers and RAP from the rings They are called rap rings for a reason

Not according to sportos on MP - rap rings are for lowering through. Multipage thread on rap-backups that drifted into that debate.

:D