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Does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe?

James Hicks · · Fruita, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 131
TheBirdman wrote: 28. Climbing 10 years. Started sport climbing, than into trad, than into alpine, then into ice, now moving into winter/alpine. First axe was a BD Raven, then two Venoms, now two Vipers. Have demo'd every other type of ice tool out there. This thread should be titled "Try to tell me what a mountaineering axe does that an ice tool doesn't do adequately plus 100 other things that may be required in the mountains". Believe it or not, I'm actually open to the idea of a mountaineering axe if someone can show me one area where it will exceed the performance of a tool. Again, maybe it's just the perspective. I want to be able to summit in any condition regardless of the obstacles. It sounds like the people who argue for mountaineering axes are more comfortable turning around if the terrain gets too technical for their gear. To each their own I guess. If you're a snow slogger (like my friend) and the snow slog turns more technical, you call it a day. If you're a climber and the snow slog turns more difficult, you're psyched you have the right gear to continue.
How about the idea that some folks prepare accordingly to what they are climbing. I also sometimes wear trail runners instead of boots, and take a down jacket instead of a rain coat.
Mark R · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
TheBirdman wrote: Believe it or not, I'm actually open to the idea of a mountaineering axe if someone can show me one area where it will exceed the performance of a tool.
TheBirdman wrote: I have and it works fine between 35-50 degrees assuming there is no ice or rock and the angle remains consistent.
TheBirdman wrote: If you're a snow slogger (like my friend) and the snow slog turns more technical, you call it a day.
^Yes.

It sounds like we've figured it out. I don't think anyone is advocating climbing steep couloirs with just a mountain axe. It's for when you are doing standard mellow snow routes or glacier travel.

There's also a progressively steeper range of angles at which you are walking flat, then using french technique, then front-pointing with tools.

Different styles of climbing, different types of routes.
Bruno Schull · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 0

Hi Birdman. I don't know exactly what you're looking for here. You seem very convinced of your views, and simply looking for a place to share your opinions. Are you trolling? Maybe, but I'll take your post at face value. What can I add?

First, I would say that what you are comfortable using will just depend on your skill and comfort level. A couloir with some steep sections, possible some bare ice, possible some easy rock. Many people will feel more secure with two ice tools, leashes, rope, and so on. Others will feel quite comfortable with a single tool, or even no tool at all. And I am quite sure that, if you take a skilled climber moving within their comfort level with a single tool, and an equivalent climber moving with two tools, the climber with the single tool will be faster. Of course, you can move fast with two tools, often faster than less experienced climbers with one tool. But what about the really skilled climbers moving comfortably and safely (for them) with a single tool? Soling the rock, occasionally swinging the tool, often plunging the pick or shaft, using the other hand for balance. Fast and safe--for them.

As to the whole question of position/balance/security/speed...it's so personal. For example, if the conditions are good, I love to climb with two tools holding them high up on the shaft and plunging the picks as you describe. But If I am climbing in a rope team, crossing a glacier, making slow ascending turns on a gentle slope, of ascending a moderate couloir with easy rock, I prefer a straight axe in the cane position. Just so much more comfortable and secure for me.

Self-arrest and glacier travel. When I started climbing, I actually had self-arrest. It was hard, but it worked. It gave me a good sense of the limitations--a good lesson. I have since taught self-arrest many times. Yes, people place far too much confidence in self-arrest, but in some conditions it does work, and I think it is an important skill. Trying to self arrest with a technical tool makes a very difficult skill much harder. I don't want to say impossible but I would definitely not want to try to self arrest with a Viper. As for glacier travel, I have seen the video, as well as others. Self arrest is hard or nearly impossible on ice. That said, there are plenty of cases of it working, and rope teams holding falls and extricating partners. There are so many variables; snow conditions, rope length, team size, distance, rope management and so on. If I was walking on a glacier with potential crevasse fall, and I was sharing responsibility for my and my partners' safety, I would definitely want a straight axe in my hand.

I don't want to sound patronizing--you probably have plenty of experience and skill--but I would say go and practice: climb those couloirs with a single axe. You don't have to use it like a cane, just swing it, and use the other hand for balance. Clip it to your harness and climb that rock. Stay in your comfort zone, and get used to the freedom and movement of one tool and no leash. Likewise, find a suitable location with good run out and practice self arrest from all positions (head up, head down, back, front) using a bunch of different tools. See what you think. Try it on hard snow or ice. Get your friend to experiment too.

Last, perhaps the reason you like to climb with poles, two vipers, and leashes, is that you want to climb the hard stuff, you want to feel like you are climbing the hard stuff, and you want to get a full experience from the day. I think we all feel that way sometimes. I also think this is what some others above were suggesting in a very subtle way. It just might be faster and easier with one tool.

OK, That's my two cents. Fire away.

wendy weiss · · boulder, co · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10

Not for technical climbing, but on 30-40 (maybe 45) degree snow slopes I have successfully self-arrested with my trusty Ramer veg-o-matic poles. (Doesn't say much for my teleing technique.)

jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165
TheBirdman wrote: ... Maybe this is because I was an ice climber before I was a snow-slogger ... I want to be able to summit in any condition regardless of the obstacles...As for dropping a tool, then I'd be mixed climbing; one tool and one hand most likely...
Cool man. Have fun out there! Be safe. When I read this kind of rhetoric on internet posts, I can't help but fill in the blanks about the person on the other end of the keyboard as someone who is young, fit, motivated, and stoked to be pushing their boundaries.

That said, when I read someone being hung up on labels like climber vs snow slogger, talking about climbing steep stuff, having a fairly rigid view with respect to what tools are right for the job, etc, I can't help but think that I'm talking with someone with some experience, but not that much experience. Why? The folks with a little experience are usually the loudest in their proclamations that they've got it all figured out.

I mean no offense, and maybe I've got it all wrong. My $0.02...
Bruno Schull · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 0

Couple more things.

First, there is a big difference between classic axes that appear similar. The BD Raven series is really for use like a cane and self-arrest. The Grivel Air tech series or the Blue Ice Bluebird is almost a technical tool--you could easily climb steep ice with them.

5 things a traditional axe does better than a technical tool:

1) Support your weight light a cane. Great point of balance, great to rest on, perfect for glacier travel and moderate terrain a little too steep for poles but not nearly steep enough for two tools.

2) Plunge straight down. Sure a technical tool can plunge, but in soft spooky snow with a hard layer lower down, nothing beats an axe with a straight shaft plunged down to the head. In those kinds of conditions, two tools with picks will do nothing in the snow.

3) Self arrest. The difference between self arrest with a classic axe and self arrest with a technical tool are not trivial. It is much easier with a long straight shaft and moderately inclined pick. A technical tool makes a hard task that much harder.

4) Chopping stances and tent platforms. Chopping with a long handled straight tool is almost fun. Chopping with a technical tool is exhausting and frustrating. Often the crux of the day.

5) Weight. A single traditional tool with no leash is much lighter than two technical tools with leashes.

Dave Bn · · Boise, ID · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 10
TheBirdman wrote:The basis for me being so set on two tools is I don't want to be limited in what I can do. A mountaineering axe has, what seems to me, a very narrow application. Ice tools encompass those few applications as well as can climb WI5/M10
Do you often go out really having no idea what to expect? Even routes that change conditions dramatically can be easily anticipated.

Snow couloir climb and ski down = axe or whippet

Really steep snow couloir climb = axe + tool

Steep couloir with possibility of mixed or ice = two tools

Yes conditions can change, but not that much. Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.
RockinOut · · NY, NY · Joined May 2010 · Points: 100
TheBirdman wrote:The basis for me being so set on two tools is I don't want to be limited in what I can do. A mountaineering axe has, what seems to me, a very narrow application. Ice tools encompass those few applications as well as can climb WI5/M10 and everything in between.
Technical tools haven't always been around. I'm certain everything you have climbed or plan to climb has been done with only a mountaineering axe.

Ski Mountaineering is skinning up as far as you can, then slogging the rest of the way then skiing down. At least thats my definition of it. If I was you friend and you said we're going ski mountaineering and we run into WI5/M10 I'd be pretty pissed at you. WI5/M10 doesn't just appear out of nowhere on a ski mountaineering route. If you plan ahead better you won't have unexpected obstacles on your planned route.
matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155
Dave Bn wrote: Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.
+1
Steven Sheets · · Livermore, CA · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 30
Dave Bn wrote: Snow couloir climb and ski down = axe or whippet Really steep snow couloir climb = axe + tool Steep couloir with possibility of mixed or ice = two tools Yes conditions can change, but not that much. Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.
Yep. That's about it.
Reid Kalmus · · Breckenridge, Colorado · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 0

WHY DONT YOU GIVE THE VIPERS TO THE KID WHO CANT CLIMB AND STEP YOUR GAME UP. YOU SHOULD CARRY AN 8,000 METER SUIT-BECAUSE YOU GOTTA BE READY FOR EVERYTHING THE MOUNTAIN THROWS AT YOU.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Dave Bn wrote: Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.
I don't agree with that. Sure you can do steep stuff with one tool, but I like having two when it gets steep. I might use one venom and one aztar. That second hand ends up balancing on the snow anyways. Plus I'll bring along my coulior harness and with two runners can set up 2 second belay for myself. Get a good rythm going up and if I have to down climb picks forward is pretty steady.

To each their own I guess.
Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

consider your sport and objective. then choose what you need, not what you might be used to or prefer from other ice/snow sports. I agree to 'use the right tool for the situaion'...and an ice axe sounds appropriate for the outing.

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

Did ya'll scare him off with your common sense and objective analysis of the pros and cons?

chosspector · · San Juans, CO · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 1,296

For general ski mountaineering you use one or two whippets. For alpine or ice climbing with skis on your back then some extreme rappelling with skis on your back then use two technical ice tools.

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
"birdman" wrote:Does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe?
Uh...

Alex Lowe, Hans Saari, Doug Coombs, Hans Johnstone, Mark Newcomb, Rick Hunt, Steve Romeo, Chris Davenport, Stephen Koch, Andrew McLean, Beau Fredlund...

There are pictures out there of each of these legends of ski mountaineering (yep, you guessed it)... using a traditional mountaineering axe. They can easily be found via Google. Because it is a tool suited to about 98% of ski mountaineering objectives.

If your buddy can't hang on a techy section of couloir with a traditional axe and you feel the need to convince him to always carry two technical tools, perhaps you both need to work on your technique a good bit more.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I use a straight shaft, lightweight, (but long) mountaineering axe quite a bit. I think that it is the perfect tool for conditions like this:

west face chute, Uncompahgre, in late spring.

Plunging the shaft in sometimes is necessary/useful when protecting yourself. A long shaft, with no pommel works best for that.

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
youtube.com/watch?v=hNEUIv2…

Anselme Baud & Patrick Vallencant, legends of ski mountaineering, climbing & skiing the Arete de Peuterey, steeper terrain that you & I are likely to ever ski... check out what they're climbing it with! :)
Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Nick Stayner wrote: Anselme Baud & Patrick Vallencant, legends of ski mountaineering, climbing & skiing the Arete de Peuterey, steeper terrain that you & I are likely to ever ski... check out what they're climbing it with! :)
And check out what they are skiing it with. It still blows my mind every time I see them climb and ski.
J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140

Here's a simple reasoning to carry a mountaineering axe on non technical terrain.

1) better suited for plunging and self belay up low angle and moderate snow slopes. 45-50cm curved tools are just too short for anything but really steep snow. I even find my 60cm axe too short at times.

2) better suited for digging out a belay stance and doing things like a boot axe belay.

3) if you can't climb WI3 with a mountaineering axe, you should practice. I'm not saying you should like it, but you should be able to do it. I'm not a great climber but I've ascended quite a few moderate ice routes on a T rated mountaineering axe.

4) not saying I'd want to do this, but if I had to chop steps (broken or lost crampon), I'd prefer a mountain axe.

5) most importantly, it's much much much more effective at self arrest.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Mountaineering
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