Does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe?
|
TheBirdman wrote: 28. Climbing 10 years. Started sport climbing, than into trad, than into alpine, then into ice, now moving into winter/alpine. First axe was a BD Raven, then two Venoms, now two Vipers. Have demo'd every other type of ice tool out there. This thread should be titled "Try to tell me what a mountaineering axe does that an ice tool doesn't do adequately plus 100 other things that may be required in the mountains". Believe it or not, I'm actually open to the idea of a mountaineering axe if someone can show me one area where it will exceed the performance of a tool. Again, maybe it's just the perspective. I want to be able to summit in any condition regardless of the obstacles. It sounds like the people who argue for mountaineering axes are more comfortable turning around if the terrain gets too technical for their gear. To each their own I guess. If you're a snow slogger (like my friend) and the snow slog turns more technical, you call it a day. If you're a climber and the snow slog turns more difficult, you're psyched you have the right gear to continue.How about the idea that some folks prepare accordingly to what they are climbing. I also sometimes wear trail runners instead of boots, and take a down jacket instead of a rain coat. |
|
TheBirdman wrote: Believe it or not, I'm actually open to the idea of a mountaineering axe if someone can show me one area where it will exceed the performance of a tool. TheBirdman wrote: I have and it works fine between 35-50 degrees assuming there is no ice or rock and the angle remains consistent. TheBirdman wrote: If you're a snow slogger (like my friend) and the snow slog turns more technical, you call it a day.^Yes. It sounds like we've figured it out. I don't think anyone is advocating climbing steep couloirs with just a mountain axe. It's for when you are doing standard mellow snow routes or glacier travel. There's also a progressively steeper range of angles at which you are walking flat, then using french technique, then front-pointing with tools. Different styles of climbing, different types of routes. |
|
Hi Birdman. I don't know exactly what you're looking for here. You seem very convinced of your views, and simply looking for a place to share your opinions. Are you trolling? Maybe, but I'll take your post at face value. What can I add? |
|
Not for technical climbing, but on 30-40 (maybe 45) degree snow slopes I have successfully self-arrested with my trusty Ramer veg-o-matic poles. (Doesn't say much for my teleing technique.) |
|
TheBirdman wrote: ... Maybe this is because I was an ice climber before I was a snow-slogger ... I want to be able to summit in any condition regardless of the obstacles...As for dropping a tool, then I'd be mixed climbing; one tool and one hand most likely...Cool man. Have fun out there! Be safe. When I read this kind of rhetoric on internet posts, I can't help but fill in the blanks about the person on the other end of the keyboard as someone who is young, fit, motivated, and stoked to be pushing their boundaries. That said, when I read someone being hung up on labels like climber vs snow slogger, talking about climbing steep stuff, having a fairly rigid view with respect to what tools are right for the job, etc, I can't help but think that I'm talking with someone with some experience, but not that much experience. Why? The folks with a little experience are usually the loudest in their proclamations that they've got it all figured out. I mean no offense, and maybe I've got it all wrong. My $0.02... |
|
Couple more things. |
|
TheBirdman wrote:The basis for me being so set on two tools is I don't want to be limited in what I can do. A mountaineering axe has, what seems to me, a very narrow application. Ice tools encompass those few applications as well as can climb WI5/M10Do you often go out really having no idea what to expect? Even routes that change conditions dramatically can be easily anticipated. Snow couloir climb and ski down = axe or whippet Really steep snow couloir climb = axe + tool Steep couloir with possibility of mixed or ice = two tools Yes conditions can change, but not that much. Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route. |
|
TheBirdman wrote:The basis for me being so set on two tools is I don't want to be limited in what I can do. A mountaineering axe has, what seems to me, a very narrow application. Ice tools encompass those few applications as well as can climb WI5/M10 and everything in between.Technical tools haven't always been around. I'm certain everything you have climbed or plan to climb has been done with only a mountaineering axe. Ski Mountaineering is skinning up as far as you can, then slogging the rest of the way then skiing down. At least thats my definition of it. If I was you friend and you said we're going ski mountaineering and we run into WI5/M10 I'd be pretty pissed at you. WI5/M10 doesn't just appear out of nowhere on a ski mountaineering route. If you plan ahead better you won't have unexpected obstacles on your planned route. |
|
Dave Bn wrote: Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.+1 |
|
Dave Bn wrote: Snow couloir climb and ski down = axe or whippet Really steep snow couloir climb = axe + tool Steep couloir with possibility of mixed or ice = two tools Yes conditions can change, but not that much. Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.Yep. That's about it. |
|
WHY DONT YOU GIVE THE VIPERS TO THE KID WHO CANT CLIMB AND STEP YOUR GAME UP. YOU SHOULD CARRY AN 8,000 METER SUIT-BECAUSE YOU GOTTA BE READY FOR EVERYTHING THE MOUNTAIN THROWS AT YOU. |
|
Dave Bn wrote: Carrying two ice tools on a 35-50 degree snow climb is stupid much like carrying trad gear on a sport route.I don't agree with that. Sure you can do steep stuff with one tool, but I like having two when it gets steep. I might use one venom and one aztar. That second hand ends up balancing on the snow anyways. Plus I'll bring along my coulior harness and with two runners can set up 2 second belay for myself. Get a good rythm going up and if I have to down climb picks forward is pretty steady. To each their own I guess. |
|
consider your sport and objective. then choose what you need, not what you might be used to or prefer from other ice/snow sports. I agree to 'use the right tool for the situaion'...and an ice axe sounds appropriate for the outing. |
|
Did ya'll scare him off with your common sense and objective analysis of the pros and cons? |
|
For general ski mountaineering you use one or two whippets. For alpine or ice climbing with skis on your back then some extreme rappelling with skis on your back then use two technical ice tools. |
|
"birdman" wrote:Does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe?Uh... Alex Lowe, Hans Saari, Doug Coombs, Hans Johnstone, Mark Newcomb, Rick Hunt, Steve Romeo, Chris Davenport, Stephen Koch, Andrew McLean, Beau Fredlund... There are pictures out there of each of these legends of ski mountaineering (yep, you guessed it)... using a traditional mountaineering axe. They can easily be found via Google. Because it is a tool suited to about 98% of ski mountaineering objectives. If your buddy can't hang on a techy section of couloir with a traditional axe and you feel the need to convince him to always carry two technical tools, perhaps you both need to work on your technique a good bit more. |
|
I use a straight shaft, lightweight, (but long) mountaineering axe quite a bit. I think that it is the perfect tool for conditions like this: |
|
youtube.com/watch?v=hNEUIv2…
Anselme Baud & Patrick Vallencant, legends of ski mountaineering, climbing & skiing the Arete de Peuterey, steeper terrain that you & I are likely to ever ski... check out what they're climbing it with! :) |
|
Nick Stayner wrote: Anselme Baud & Patrick Vallencant, legends of ski mountaineering, climbing & skiing the Arete de Peuterey, steeper terrain that you & I are likely to ever ski... check out what they're climbing it with! :)And check out what they are skiing it with. It still blows my mind every time I see them climb and ski. |
|
Here's a simple reasoning to carry a mountaineering axe on non technical terrain. |