What is "World Class"?

I think "world class" destinations have also seen a number of climbing "firsts" historically.

Crotch Robbins wrote:World class destinations have a lifetime of climbing.

The Tetons fits this bill. Over 800 routes in Renny's book.

Jason Todd wrote:Out of this world class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG2Yt-aQLfk

A good filter for a list like this is that if you live or have lived within a day trip of the place, you can't nominate it for world class status. That'll get rid of really good but not world class places like Index, Red River Gorge, Cochise, the Gunks, City of Rocks, anywhere in Wyoming, anywhere in Colorado, etc. If an area is that good, multiple non-locals will nominate it.

I would say that to be considered world class the particular climbing locality in question would have to attract climbers from around the world for the specific purpose of climbing and nothing else. If people were to think that merely meeting international climbers at a crag or area defined it as world class, then places that wouldn't otherwise be on the list would be. For instance, New York City attracts millions of visitors from around the world each year who journey there for business or pleasure (or both). If you have to work on a project for a firm in the city for a couple of months and you're based out of France (where you kept up a regular climbing habit), where would you go nearby to get in some outdoor climbing? Thus, an area that might not otherwise attract international climbers would. Similar arguments could be made about Las Vegas too, I suppose.

The thing to do would be to ask people if they are in the country specifically to climb.

Of all of the places I've been to, Rocklands, in the Western Cape of South Africa would have to be the most world-classy-ist. 19 out of 20 people I met there were not from South Africa. Interestingly, this has actually been causing problems for Rocklands since without a strong local contingent to teach everyone how to behave, some areas have been misused, and closed as a result.

Lowering the status of the Gunks on the premise that visiting international climbers are coming there because they had to be in NYC for work anyway is specious at best(if that was the inference), and shows woeful ignorance of Shawangunk climbing history.

While it is true that new routing is nearly nonexistent there now, it is because the obvious lines have been climbed, and there is no way to protect what's left unclimbed, since bolting is not allowed. Still, someone found a new one a few years ago, and there are numbers of routes which aren't in the guide books.

Being someone who lives very nearby, I have come upon a lot of visiting climbers, because my dog Teddy was a magnet for people. I can assure you that there is still an influx of US and internationals throughout the season who are coming there specifically for the climbing and are finding it worth their while.

The easy access, proximity to the NYC metro area and range of quality routes for beginner through badass climber levels makes the Gunks crowded, and the amount of N00b/Gumby shenanigans can be off-putting for someone who is used to quieter environments. Weekends in season can seem like a "Climber Festival Weekend" - and we know how people react to seeing those events when their usually mellow crag is bombarded.

For those who feel the need - go ahead and declare the Gunks as "has been," "overstated," or whatever else, but I have the feeling climbers like John Stannard, Lynn Hill, or Henry Barber would smirk and try to get away from someone with such boorish spew if they got stuck having to converse.

Michael Sullivan wrote:... Of all of the places I've been to, Rocklands, in the Western Cape of South Africa would have to be the most world-classy-ist. 19 out of 20 people I met there were not from South Africa. Interestingly, this has actually been causing problems for Rocklands since without a strong local contingent to teach everyone how to behave, some areas have been misused, and closed as a result.

Sadly, the amount of "class" in this world is diminishing exponentially.

The zombie apocalypse will be our only salvation.

"World Class" implies that it is worth traveling to another continent. I live in London. Places in N. America I'd fly to for no other reason that climbing (in no particular order):

New River Gorge (or NC or RRG if weather at the New sucks)
Gunks/Dacks
RMNP
Tetons
Wind River Range (Cirque of Towers)
Elephant's Perch (w/ warm up at City of Rocks)
Moab area
Cochise Stronghold
Sierra (pretty much anywhere)
Yosemite/Tuolomne
Squamish
Bugaboos

Probably a few others on the list, but you get the idea.

I think Michael Sullivan's theory is completely valid, though we can debate whether it applies to The Gunks or Red Rocks.

I suspect some lesser crags around Yosemite get collateral international traffic because folks are in the area. I know when I travel overseas I will visit any crags in the vicinity, but I wouldn't fly to Europe to go many of those crags.

The Gunks is an interesting case. Super Crack at Skytop attracted superstars like Moffatt & Gullich in the 80s. If you read their auto/biographies its clear they traveled to the Gunks for that route. But now Skytop is effectively closed. Lost City and many other good crags are undocumented/"locals only". If you were making a list of top 5 routes at each grade, many of those routes would be at closed or undocumented crags. Is it reasonable to use 'unavailable' routes to boost a crag's standing? I don't think The Trapps by themselves are world class.

If we're comparing crags within their weight class, it would be interesting to take a poll among those who have climbed extensively at The Gunks and Arapiles.

Changing topics, I think it will be easier to make a case for any US trad crag, because there is far less competition from overseas. The list of World Class sport crags in the US would be quite short.

I haven't climbed at the Arapiles, but after climbing at Table Mountain in Cape Town SA I can't justify putting the Gunks on a world class list. The Gunks is a really good regional crag with history - along the lines of the Black Hills Needles, Eldo, Wasatch Range, etc.

Lowering the status of the Gunks on the premise that visiting international climbers are coming there because they had to be in NYC for work anyway is specious at best(if that was the inference), and shows woeful ignorance of Shawangunk climbing history.

Well, I guess you have already decided that it would be defined as world class. Conversely, I entered into this conversation, without that assumption. So I guess that is where we differ. I offered up New York and Las Vegas (and therefore indirectly, the Gunks and Red Rocks) not to demote their adjacent crags. Rather, I offered them up because they provide interesting examples of how a climbing area's status could potentially be elevated not only by the quantity, quality, diversity, of climbs offered but by its proximity to other points of interest to international travelers.

Personally, I think that Red Rocks would make the list of World Class Climbing Destinations, and I have spent some seemingly unreasonable amounts of time and money to get myself there specifically for climbing and nothing else. That said, that still doesn't mean that because I think so it is true. Regardless of my own opinion I think factors like proximity to mega-tourism and commerce hot-spots, or even other climbing attractions (as Monomaniac pointed out) should also be something interesting to consider.

As someone not living in the United States currently I can say that there seems to be a lot of interest in Hueco, Bishop, Squamish, RRG, Yosemite, Red Rocks, Smith Rock, and Indian Creek. As for gyms.. (dare I take us down that road) a lot of people (myself included) are really interested in finding out if Sender One is a badass as we all hope it is. Climbers who have never even set foot in North America can name that gym.

Monomaniac wrote:I think it will be easier to make a case for any US trad crag, because there is far less competition from overseas. The list of World Class sport crags in the US would be quite short.

I was going to say the same thing. If you want to talk about world class trad crags/areas, then North America is right at the top. Sport and bouldering, however, are a different story. I can't think of a bouldering venue that compares to Font, Magic Wood, Rocklands, etc, and there are just a few sport crags in the US that would make it into the top 25 sport crags in the world.

Monomaniac wrote: I suspect some lesser crags around Yosemite get collateral international traffic because folks are in the area. I know when I travel overseas I will visit any crags in the vicinity, but I wouldn't fly to Europe to go many of those crags.

This is one of the major problems with defining "world-class" based on whether it gets visited by an international crowd. Many of the posters here seem to be assuming that if people from other countries pay a visit, then it is world class. This assumption incorrectly conflates "internationally known/visited" with "world class." The former is a measure of exposure and popularity, the latter (I will argue here) should be a measure of intrinsic quality, independent of whether the Euros know about it yet. Granted, most world-class quality areas eventually become internationally famous and popular, but you can have one without the other. For instance, Joshua Tree gets tons of international visitors, since the camping is nice, it is historically famous, and it is a good place to hang out when you get snowed out of Yosemite or Indian Creek in late November. Regarding the quality of the climbing itself, I think that you would have a very difficult time trying to claim that it is world class for single pitch trad climbing, when held up against its competitors. The quality just isn't there; it cannot compare to the world's best (in its genre), and thus it is not world class.

The reverse can also be true. There are areas of world-class quality that haven't found a place yet on the international circuit, either because they are newly discovered, they are hard to get to, or just because Petzl haven't done a Roc Trip there yet. For instance, the recent hype makes Penoles sound like it is a world-class bouldering area; notable and well-traveled boulderers have said it is as good as anywhere else they've been. This should qualify it as world class, even though it has only seen a handful of international visitors. Similarly, Indian Creek was a world-class area even in the 80s. Just because the Swiss and the Belgians hadn't started going there yet, doesn't mean it wasn't the best crack climbing in the world. The quality was there to argue that it was on-par or better than any other crag in its genre in the world and thus it was world class even before it was famous.

Monomaniac wrote: The Gunks is an interesting case. Super Crack at Skytop attracted superstars like Moffatt & Gullich in the 80s. If you read their auto/biographies its clear they traveled to the Gunks for that route.

I also think that we should define world-class in the context of modern climbing. Moffat also visited Eldo specifically so that he could attempt what were, at the time, some of the hardest and steepest routes in the world. At that time, the Redgarden roof routes were probably world class, for steep climbing at the cutting-edge of difficulty. Since then, though, Eldo has been eclipsed by many, many other crags, both for difficulty and quality. Even though it once belonged on the world stage, this does not mean it is currently world-class, since the selection of high-quality crags and routes have grown so much. Again, world-class is being defined here not be popularity of visitation, but by relative quality, quantity, and variety.

I always thought "World Class" meant "World Class" athlete worthy, not necessarily an International visitor worthy. IMO, a crag that has enough to keep a 5.14 and a 5.10 climber equally busy/engaged say for a week is a "World Class" crag (for whatever reason be it the difficulty, amount of climbs, scenery, unique style or historic aspect).

doligo wrote:I always thought "World Class" meant "World Class" athlete worthy, not necessarily an International visitor worthy. IMO, a crag that has enough to keep a 5.14 and a 5.10 climber equally busy/engaged say for a week is a "World Class" crag (for whatever reason be it the difficulty, amount of climbs, scenery, unique style or historic aspect).

I disagree with the difficult-factor here. I think that it is entirely reasonable to say that a crag is world-class area for easy routes. Regarding Michael Sullivan's comments above about Red Rocks, it is probably reasonable to claim that Red Rocks is world-class for amenable, easy, and accessible long routes. If you want a 15 pitch 5.6 with good rock, good weather, bolted anchors, and interesting climbing, Red Rocks is the peer of anywhere in the world, and thus worth traveling long distances for. It would not be world class, however, for hard sport climbs (although nearby Clark Mountain might be, despite its difficult access).

Ryan Williams wrote: I was going to say the same thing. If you want to talk about world class trad crags/areas, then North America is right at the top. Sport and bouldering, however, are a different story. I can't think of a bouldering venue that compares to Font, Magic Wood, Rocklands, etc, and there are just a few sport crags in the US that would make it into the top 25 sport crags in the world.

Hueco? Do factors like obnoxious red-tape matter in "world-class" designation, or does quality/quantity/variety of climbing trump all else? How about weather, remoteness, and/or hazards related to narco-traffickers?

Matt Roberts wrote: I'd put the RRG on the list, if for no other reason than the Petzl RocTour visited.

there is an absolutely fucking hilarious story attached to that actually. :)

The term world class is totally subjective. I know an area where the rock quality is second to none, there's 1800 routes and 800 boulder problems, a beautiful pristine lake and lots of old-growth forest. The climbing is technical and strenuous and there's a long tradition and history of trad climbing. Having traveled the world climbing, I consider this area to be "world class" even though nobody would come across the world just to climb here.

On the other hand, I now live in an area where the rock isn't as good quality and the general area is scruffy and dirty and all the routes are bolted but climbers come from the four corners of the globe.

5.samadhi wrote: there is an absolutely fucking hilarious story attached to that actually. :)

Do tell.

Ryan Williams wrote: I was going to say the same thing. If you want to talk about world class trad crags/areas, then North America is right at the top. Sport and bouldering, however, are a different story. I can't think of a bouldering venue that compares to Font, Magic Wood, Rocklands, etc, and there are just a few sport crags in the US that would make it into the top 25 sport crags in the world.

lol yeah font is better than hueco hahahaha.....no.

5.samadhi wrote: lol yeah font is better than hueco hahahaha.....no.

:-/