Avalanche Transceivers Do You Use Them

Last week I was rereading the story of Alex Lowe and Dave Bridges dieing in an avalanche on Shishipangma. Then the avalanche hit on Everest. This has me thinking, How many of you routinely use transceivers in avalanche terrain?

I don't own one, and have climbed without them when maybe I should have. In fact, the only time I've used one was when I was taking an ice climbing course several years ago and the guide company mandated their use. More recently, I was with a guided course in winter and we didn't use them. (It should go without saying that these devices are only of value when a team is using them.)

Out of curiosity: Have any of you been on Everest (or other Himalayan peak)as part of a guided team and, if so, what percentage of climbers/teams use them?

I'm not trying to start a debate about their value, only trying to learn how many people actually use them.

John

Those Himalayan avalanches are not survivable - I wouldn't bother with a beacon there.

I use beacons mostly when backcountry skiing since so much of the best skiing is avy terrain, and also when doing things like winter peak bagging in places like Colorado or Utah. When I am actually climbing, I practice avalanche terrain avoidance as much as possible since the nature of the terrain makes surviving a burial really low probability.

Andrew, I would not say those avalanches are not survivable as some people did in fact survive. Some were sadly in the wrong place at the wrong time whereas others were in the right place at the wrong time. Years ago I was later and my partner was more or less in the former. However, he survived the serac fall and was rescued.

John, As for the general question of avalanche beacons. I have one and use it for mostly skiing. I rarely take it with me when mtn climbing, mostly because the routes have manageable danger. That is more often than not route selection can minimize the danger. I have been dusted by a fair number of avalanches in AK. Further more often I am not worried about snow avalanches but serac fall. Getting hit with that is lower probability with higher injury/death potential than a snow avalanche.

The other to consider is that many time when in such terrain one is roped up. As such, if one goes most all will go.

I almost always carry them skiing in the mountains unless it is a harmless snow field. I have never carried them while climbing.

A beacon is pointless if you're not also carrying a shovel and probe - settled avalanche debris has a consistency damn near concrete.

A beacon is also useless if you don't know how to use it and/or practice regularly.

Beacons are only as useful as the skills of the person using it search for your ass.

"Those Himalayan avalanches are not survivable" - LOL....Really?

Thats like a cop saying "Those rounds may penetrate my kevlar so Im not gonna wear my vest today"

Many big mountain avalanches (not sure why Himalayan slides are more deadly then any other big mountain slides) may not be survivable....dont mean I wont have my gear with me. Skiing out west or up north I always have gear on me....even on low days. You just never know. Take for example all the people up on mt washington a few weeks ago. I can put 1000 bucks on the table that 75% of the people that crossed that slope prior to it sliding did not have avy gear on them. They got f'in LUCKY. No one foresaw that...but it happened and it happened BIG

I also carry gear while climbing ice if there is potential to run into avy prone areas....which up in Huntington is commonplace. Im not sure how many people have to get hurt or killed up there due to avy's before people start taking it more seriously.

(Not directed at anyone specifically) - Skiing or climbing without a beacon in avy terrain does NOT make you a bad ass. It makes you dumb. Whens the last time your beacon shovel or probe really weighed you down or got in the way? Have it and most importantly know how to use it effectively. You can spend 600 bucks on a new pair of ice tools....spend another 250-300 and get something that can potentially save your own or anothers life.

I always carry a beacon and shovel if I'm backcountry skiing. I seldom carry a beacon and shovel if I'm climbing.

The reason for this is that when I'm skiing, I'm typically on terrain and snow that is conducive to avalanches. Generally, the better the skiing conditions, the higher the avy risk. So, when skiing, I'm generally always at some risk of avalanche, and if the avalanche happens, there's a risk I will be buried.

Climbing is a bit different, however. For the most part, the higher the avy threat, the worse the climbing is. Generally, I'm not climbing in avalanche terrain during periods of significant avalanche risk. If there's a climbing route that is in a gully that's threatened by avalanche, I tend to just stay away until avy danger is low.

About the only time that I regularly take a beacon and shovel when I'm climbing is where the approach or descent is over avy terrain.

Snow is a dynamic medium that changes over time through metamorphic processes. Knowing when a Beacon/Probe/Shovel is an appropriate addition to your kit is conditional upon accurate interpretation of available snow pack data. While guiding on Mt. Shasta we rarely carried Beacons, nor mandated them for our clients because we were able to accurately assess the risk vs. hazard of the avalanche terrain that we were traveling in.
I also agree in principle with the aforementioned statement about not surviving a serac-fall induced avalanche. The Khumbu is notorious for its inherent instability. The probability of surviving any kind of avalanche in the Khumbu are ridiculously low, its no small miracle that any of the Sherpas survived at all.

At the very least, a beacon will limit the time rescuers are exposed to danger recovering your body plus closure to family members, all very worthwhile.

Avalanches on huge Himalayan peaks are much different than on hills in the northeast or mountains in the western US - depth of snowpack, size of storms - especially in monsoon country, size of seracs and glaciers, size of slopes, etc. create avalanches on a whole different scale. I've not climbed in the Himalayas, but i've watched huge avalanches in the Andes and Caucasus mountains that would certainly not be survivable. I think the scale of these things is hard to conceive unless you've seen it in person.

In the case of the Shishipangma accident, you are talking about an absolutely massive avalanche hitting some of the best and most experienced climbers/ski mountaineers in the world. The people who were caught in the direct path died and the ones on the edges got hurt badly. These were trauma injuries and death - not simple burials. A beacon would have been useful for body recovery, but nothing else.

The Everest avalanche sounds like it was a big ice serac collapse in the Khumbu icefall. Again, if you get hit by this you are going to die of trauma if you are in the direct path. If you are in the periphery you may survive.

Beacons are great tools, especially for backcountry skiing in friendly snowpacks where medical attention is nearby, but they have their limits. Most people caught in gigantic avalanches die of trauma. Most people that are caught and carried in technical terrain die of trauma. There is a lot of terrain out there where getting caught is just not an option, crossing danger zones is a roll of the dice, and people die because of those factors. Beacons are just a false sense of security and extra weight in that kind of terrain.

Andrew Gram wrote: The Everest avalanche sounds like it was a big ice serac collapse in the Khumbu icefall.

The avalanche was from serac fall but not within the ice fall but from the west shoulder. A large chunk of the hanging glacier above the ice fall fell. Basically on the same lines as what happened on Shishipangma. Had it been a sera fall with in the ice fall there would a have been fewer deaths/injuries.

Andrew Gram wrote:I think the scale of these things is hard to conceive unless you've seen it in person.

You are correct the scale is huge. On several trips we would hear the crack, then make bets on whether they would 1) go across the valley 2) reach us 3) whether to hit the deck and hold on. Having been dumped on by a serac fall I like to compare it to having a couple of semis full of bowling balls being dropped on 45 degree slope from a couple of thousand feet above and having them bounce on you. While a helmet helps wearing a pack was a important.

Most every avy death is attributed to lack of sex. The correlation is striking, in a forty year double decker blinded study, every single fatality was not having sex. While there were reports of extreme behavior, or 'being extreme,' even without any accident investigation or coroner's report, we found lack of sex as the most common factor between all extremes. You just need to name drop four or five peeps, get a sponsor, and bam, extreme avy death no sex bitch slap, every time. Except those using sheep as a quasi concubine/airbag, but that's extreme cases only.

I use one.
Seeing as how I don't alpine climb at a level where every gram counts, beacon/shovel/probe are not a problem to carry. I'd really be pissed if I died from a shallow wind slab being triggered above a terrain trap by another party, or a wet slide in a couloir, or etc......... Unsurvivable Himalayan avalanches? I don't buy it. Most of the time, yeah you'll probably succumb to trauma but, what if?
My point is that you could get buried in any snow environment.

If I'm out on snow I almost always have beacon probe and shovel. On mountaineering trips a shovel is helpful enough, and a probe and beacon weigh compartively little. And as every avi course will tell you, low risk doesn't preclude avalanches.

Yeah the R5 avalanche isn't going to be survivable, but nothing prevents smaller ones in the great ranges (although I've never been).

Honestly though the shovel is key. It would suck to see a person buried with an arm or leg sticking up and trying to save their life with tail of a ski, mountaineering tool or just digging with your hands. Probably my second worst nightmare after suffocating slowly under a few feet a of snow unable to move any of limbs.

I carry my beacon/shovel/probe 30+ times each year, just about any time I have my snowboard on my feet. I'll leave it at home late in the spring weeks after it has stopped snowing and avalanche burial is no longer a risk. The concerns with a spring snowpack are usually cornice fall, bridge collapse, and falling into moats/glide cracks. This is specific to Cascade snow and if I went somewhere else I'd probably be more cautious.

I have a friend who was caught and buried in a big loose wet slide yesterday. It might be late April but they're still lurking.

PatCleary wrote:Yeah the R5 avalanche isn't going to be survivable, but nothing prevents smaller ones in the great ranges (although I've never been).

That isn't true in my experience. Unless you are climbing at odd times of the year, small avalanches aren't a big concern due to the nature of the snowpack and the terrain. The thing to worry about are huge serac falls. This is why it is a little odd to have US based skiers that haven't gone to the big ranges talking about beacon use in the Himalayas - it just isn't the same environment.

Here is a photo I took of the big face on Donguzoron in the Caucausus mountains, and this face does get climbed by Russian alpinists. I saw a couple of serac collapses from several different points on this face. The avalanches were godawful big, and not survivable. It is nothing like going backcountry skiing in the Wasatch.

Donguzoron in the Caucasus

Analogously we're talking a couple microwave size chunks falling off your local crag, to 1000's of tons coming off Glacier Point Apron, the difference in magnitude is hard to fathom IMHO.

I agree, BC skiing you're usually in the business entirely whereas mountaineering you're avoiding it as best as possible.

To that end, why not carry airbags/avalungs etc.

There's just a point where it becomes a numbers games practicality vs. usefulness. Is an avy beacon useful sure, but so is an airbag...but is it practical...I dunno.

Wanna start another one of these, why don't boulderers wear helmets?

Andrew Gram wrote: Here is a photo I took of the big face on Donguzoron in the Caucausus mountains, and this face does get climbed by Russian alpinists.

Makes me wanna go bounce on that cornice right now!

huck that sucker

After being swept by a fair sized slide (luckily surviving un-scathed), I gave up skiing anything steep in the winter backcountry. I pretty much stay off anything steep enough to slide unless I'm inbounds. When I do go backcountry in the winter, I always carry shovel, probe, and beacon none the less.

Spring and summer is where the best of its at for skiing big mountains and steep couloirs. A careful eye to freeze thaw conditions paired with descending as soon as the corn gets going, is way more important than wearing and carrying avy gear. I don't bring any of it during the "real" ski season. Don't think a wet slab avy is particularly survivable anyway. I won't go if the snowpack doesn't freeze up overnight.