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12mm Titanium Bolts

Original Post
Nate Ball · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 11,254

Hello. I am currently looking for 12mm titanium bolts, like the Ushba or look-alikes. They will be used with a hand drill to rebolt traditional anchor bolts at my local crag of Dragon Cave. I was in contact with Mike Richardson from Hawaii, but he doesn't seem to read his emails anymore. I am also in contact with Martin Roberts, but his P-type bolts are 14mm. Any help is much appreciated, and will be repaid with Taiwan Gold Medal beer upon your arrival here in the Sky Dragon Country.

TI bolt
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20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Nate Ball wrote:Hello. I am currently looking for 12mm titanium bolts, like the Ushba or look-alikes. They will be used with a hand drill to rebolt traditional anchor bolts at my local crag of Dragon Cave. I was in contact with Mike Richardson from Hawaii, but he doesn't seem to read his emails anymore. I am also in contact with Martin Roberts, but his P-type bolts are 14mm. Any help is much appreciated, and will be repaid with Taiwan Gold Medal beer upon your arrival here in the Sky Dragon Country.
Just call Mike. His phone number is on his website. climbaloha.com/

He has been really busy, as we all have been, trying to fix access issues. Anyway, Martin Roberts manufacturers these bolts, so if he doesent have any, they might be hard to find. I believe we have some of them, but you would have to go through Mike. The Thatianium project bought a bunch of those bolts and they might have some left over. Otherwise, if you cant get them through the Thatinum project or Mike, you are probably going to have to go with one of the other designs that Martin makes.
Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,060

You mean 10mm titanium bolts I assume? 12mm hole of course.

We (the ASCA) buy bolts (from Martin) for the Thaitanium project and last winter we bought a few extra for replacement on seaside crags in the mainland US. So we have a small number, how many are you looking for?

We don't have any of the big titanium rap rings that Martin made for this winter in Thailand.

I don't know if Josh of the Thaitanium project has extra bolts handy. However we (the ASCA) pushed our financial limits this winter and I'm not sure we will be able to afford enough for the Thaitanium project for next year, and Josh knows this, so he is probably going to hold on to what he has for Thailand.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Nate,

To the best of my knowledge, the Ushba-design is no longer being manufactured anywhere. A few people, like Josh and me, have some but they are earmarked for Thailand and Cayman Brac.

Martin's Eterna bolts are the new standard. Are you looking for the old style because you have a boatload of 12mm drills? Some other reason?

Nate Ball · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 11,254

Looking to use the old model because it's titanium, it has a proven track record, and works with the 12mm drill bits that fit the Rocpec I've been using. The Dragon Cave has a history of bold traditional climbing, but it has been usurped for the sake of convenience.

I am in contact with Josh, who was very helpful when I was over there in February, and continues to help with getting in contact with a metallurgist to study our bolts. He sent me home with one of Martin's new P-bolts, an Ushba-style bolt, a few TI rap rings, and the DVD.

Long story short, I am working directly with the locals to maintain the crag, but my standards are a bit more "old school" - dare I say "ethical" - than many of the hotshot young guns' vision of grid-bolted paradise. Steel will eventually fail in our seaside environment, so even though it would be much easier to obtain Wave or Fixe or whatever, titanium is the way to go. I only have 12mm drill bits, and only plan on placing two dozen bolts at most, but would like to do it in the best way possible. And also set a counter-example to recent development standards.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Won't a 14mm bit fit in the Rocpec?

I agree that the Ushba-style bolts are better for top anchors.

So I'm really curious...

I Googled Dragon Cave and it is described as sandstone. You imply that the existing bolts, I assume they are stainless, are corroding(?). Do you have photos? If they are stainless and cracking, it would be the first verified case of SCC in sandstone.

Are you sending samples for analysis (via Josh?). I'd recommend sending a rock sample as well because it's not seawater that's corroding the bolts.

Nate Ball · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 11,254

As far as I'm aware, a 14mm bit won't fit.
Petzl page
MP page

The Dragon Cave is definitely sandstone. I do not imply but am stating for the record that corrosion is taking place here, though not at the same rate as in Tonsai. The vast majority of bolts are Petzl P38's (316?) and Ferno CT glue-ins (304) which have both failed. They were installed between mid-90's to early 2000's. They have been mostly replaced by Petzl Collinox, Fixe, and Taiwan-made 316-steel glue-in bolts which show very little to no signs of corrosion (see picture for exception).

Backdoor
Clocktower
Golden Valley Ferno glue-ins
Petzl Collinox (2006) at Music Hall
Fixe (2005) at First Cave
Photo taken February, 2014 Ferno CT (2002) at Euro Wall

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Nate Ball wrote:As far as I'm aware, a 14mm bit won't fit. Petzl page MP page The Dragon Cave is definitely sandstone. I do not imply but am stating for the record that corrosion is taking place here, though not at the same rate as in Tonsai. The vast majority of bolts are Petzl P38's (316?) and Ferno CT glue-ins (304) which have both failed. They were installed between mid-90's to early 2000's. They have been mostly replaced by Petzl Collinox, Fixe, and Taiwan-made 316-steel glue-in bolts which show very little to no signs of corrosion (see picture for exception).
That device uses the SDS shank, and the SDS is a international standard that uses the same size shank for all bit sizes. Regardless if you buy a 1/4" bit or a 1 1/2" bit, all SDS shanks are the same size and all SDS bits will fit in any SDS drill.

Now there are different types of SDS like normal SDS, SDS plus, and SDS Max, but you can get any bit up to about 1" in standard SDS.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Nate Ball wrote: The Dragon Cave is definitely sandstone. I do not imply but am stating for the record that corrosion is taking place here, though not at the same rate as in Tonsai. The vast majority of bolts are Petzl P38's (316?) and Ferno CT glue-ins (304) which have both failed. They were installed between mid-90's to early 2000's. They have been mostly replaced by Petzl Collinox, Fixe, and Taiwan-made 316-steel glue-in bolts which show very little to no signs of corrosion (see picture for exception).
Nate,

Wow! Impressive collections of photos! Yes, you have Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) and this is, to my knowledge, the first time it's been seen in sandstone. (BTW: in the photo labeled "Photo taken February 2014" is that a crack through the bolt?)

I don't want to be condescending, so I'll try to be brief and let me know if you know all this stuff already.

Temperature, quantity of rain, rock composition and vegetation are all factors that determine the rate at which the corrosion progresses.

All Series 300 stainless steels are susceptible to SCC. Just going to a higher grade, or glue-ins, doesn't solve the problem. High Corrosion Resistance (HCR) steels, such as 2205 might survive, but the jury is still out. Titanium (grade 2) is the only material that is known to endure.

In LIMESTONE rain dissolves a little bit of the rock creating Mg and Ca cations(+) and carbonate anions(-). Any dried sea-spray is also dissolved, so mix Na(+) and Cl(-) ions into the runoff. The runoff travels over and through the porous rock ends up on the bolts. When the rain stops and the bolt dries, the cations and anions play "musical chairs" and Cl recombines with the Mg, producing MgCl2. Over many cycles, MgCl2 becomes highly concentrated and cracks stainless steel. (You can put 316 into sea water forever, boil it, and it'll never crack.)

SCC has been found in Basalt too (Hawaii, Brazil) but I've not seen any chemical analysis yet.

At this point we can only assume the chemistry in your sandstone is similar but it needs formal analysis. Has Josh gotten you in contact with someone at the UIAA? Are you going to send samples (bolts/rock) to them?

So I don't know if this will work for you, but have you thought about using Eternas for the anchors connected by cord to a Ti lowering ring, like they do in Thailand? Have you thought about Martin's U-bolts with Ti rings? Also, I agree with 20kN that any SDS bit should fit your drill.
Nate Ball · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 11,254
John Byrnes wrote:in the photo labeled "Photo taken February 2014" is that a crack through the bolt?
Yes it is. It is a Ferno CT, identical to those in the picture over the book which show obvious SCC and broke off with just a flew blows from the hammer.

I have studied the problem in-depth, talked to a metallurgist who has studied bolts here in Taiwan, and watched the Thaitanium DVD in which Angele goes into depth about the specific circumstances that cause 300-grade steels to corrode.

One interesting phenomenon that I've noticed here is that some of the rustiest bolts are on a free-standing tower that doesn't have any vegetation above, but that might be inundated by water during typhoons.

John Byrnes wrote:Has Josh gotten you in contact with someone at the UIAA? Are you going to send samples (bolts/rock) to them?
Josh put me in touch with Frauke Hogue. Not sure if she is associated with the UIAA. Her website

John Byrnes wrote:have you thought about using Eternas for the anchors
Yes, but the problem is the same. I only need 10-20, so don't want to pay the shipping fee, everyone else is holding onto theirs, and I have 12mm drill bits now.

John Byrnes wrote:connected by cord to a Ti lowering ring, like they do in Thailand?
I have proposed this to the local Powers That Be and they have said that they "don't want to replace dozens of slings every few months." Obviously they are rather misinformed on a number of fronts.

John Byrnes wrote:Have you thought about Martin's U-bolts with Ti rings?
Frankly, I'm not a fan of that setup. What happens when the rings wear through? Josh has suggested that this causes rope-twist as well.

Thank you guys so much for your informative replies. At this point, I will try to get in touch with Mike again and acquire some Ushba-style bolts that way. John, if the UIAA is interested in our bolts, I am more than happy to send them off. And check out the MP page for the Dragon Cave... it only covers what I've climbed; there are dozens of routes in the 12-14 range, both sport and trad. It's incredible. Period.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Nate Ball wrote: Yes it is. It is a Ferno CT, identical to those in the picture over the book which show obvious SCC and broke off with just a flew blows from the hammer. I have studied the problem in-depth, talked to a metallurgist who has studied bolts here in Taiwan, and watched the Thaitanium DVD in which Angele goes into depth about the specific circumstances that cause 300-grade steels to corrode. One interesting phenomenon that I've noticed here is that some of the rustiest bolts are on a free-standing tower that doesn't have any vegetation above, but that might be inundated by water during typhoons.


Yup. What you're seeing is archetypical of SCC. There's so many variables that one bolt is trash and another, only a few feet away, is fine.

Nate Ball wrote:Josh put me in touch with Frauke Hogue. Not sure if she is associated with the UIAA.
I haven't heard of her before. I'm going to bring this to the attention of Alan Jarvis, a metallurgist on the UIAA Safety Committee, and one of the people who crafted the new UIAA corrosion standards.

Nate Ball wrote:I have proposed this to the local Powers That Be and they have said that they "don't want to replace dozens of slings every few months." ... Frankly, I'm not a fan of that setup. What happens when the rings wear through? Josh has suggested that this causes rope-twist as well.
Tell them they have a choice. Replacing slings every year or so, or replacing the top anchors every 100 years or so. Either one is better than replacing the top anchors every few years when they crack. BTW, you can use a single U-bolt as the top anchor with as many rings as you want to prolong its life. And by 2114 there will probably be a Ti quick-link you can use.

As far as cost goes, a single U-bolt w/ rings which lasts >100 years is by far the cheapest, and safest, solution.

Do you know anyone who will be visiting England in the near future? Have them bring back Ti bolts for you in their baggage.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
John Byrnes wrote: Yup. What you're seeing is archetypical of SCC. There's so many variables that one bolt is trash and another, only a few feet away, is fine. I haven't heard of her before. I'm going to bring this to the attention of Alan Jarvis, a metallurgist on the UIAA Safety Committee, and one of the people who crafted the new UIAA corrosion standards. Tell them they have a choice. Replacing slings every year or so, or replacing the top anchors every 100 years or so. Either one is better than replacing the top anchors every few years when they crack. BTW, you can use a single U-bolt as the top anchor with as many rings as you want to prolong its life. And by 2114 there will probably be a Ti quick-link you can use. As far as cost goes, a single U-bolt w/ rings which lasts >100 years is by far the cheapest, and safest, solution. Do you know anyone who will be visiting England in the near future? Have them bring back Ti bolts for you in their baggage.
They already make titanium quiklinks and shackles. Numerous places sell them. You probably wont want them once you see the price tag though.

titan-marine-hardware.com/t…
alliedtitanium.com/products…
Martin Roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 95

I know this an old thread from last year but I stumbled upon it by accident looking for Titanium quicklinks and I wanted to offer an update.
We at Titan Climbing are now producing Grade 2 Titanium screw links that are only about $16 each depending upon length, about a third of the price of the ones above for a similar load. We can sell them individually and you can see them in our "All Titanium Anchor" here:
titanclimbing.com/titanium-…
Happy days :-)

Martin

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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