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Over guiding

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
NickinCO wrote:This is so fucking stupid I can't believe I'm still replying, but I am at work so why not. At the time I lead 5.9+ at eldo (earlier that week) and could onsight 11- sport. Yes I was slow (40 minutes slow, not 2 hours slow) for the first pitch because I had no idea what crack technique was. There's also a handful of routes you can do to bypass the first pitch of P.B. Loose Ends being one of them (and a much better option I should add). As far as 5.8 being my limit and not climbing it while on vacation because I'll be slow… If it wasn't my limit at the time I would have been climbing whatever was my limit be it 5.9 or 5.11. If someone gets there after me and complains too fucking bad, you should have gotten there earlier if the route was that important for you to do on that specific day. I've been shut down a couple times at Red Rocks because I didn't get there early enough and didn't want to get stuck behind slow parties (or groups of 4- even better). I didn't bitch and whine about it, I blamed myself for not getting their earlier and went and climbed something else. Climbers are such fucking pussies sometimes.
Lol. Wow dude really touched a nerve there huh? First of all it was really just an elaborate set up for the Kor's Flake being a better intro climb joke but I guess that didn't work out as planned.

But on a serious note:

I wouldn't call 40 minutes excessively slow, but if I was waiting at the base of Pear Buttress while you took two hours to lead a pitch of 5.8 -- yeah I would be pissed. I probably would have done exactly what you said and just bypassed the first pitch via Loose Ends since the first pitch of PB sucks anyway, but what if that wasn't possible?

Is it cool if I get up at 5am and start aiding Bastille crack and just tell everyone else "too fucking bad"?

There is a line -- being a bit slow is one thing -- stopping people from climbing a classic because you got there first and "they should just do something else" is just plain inconsiderate.

It's called common courtesy. Grow up.
NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
Ryan Watts wrote: Lol. Wow dude really touched a nerve there huh? First of all it was really just an elaborate set up for the Kor's Flake being a better intro climb joke but I guess that didn't work out as planned. But on a serious note: I wouldn't call 40 minutes excessively slow, but if I was waiting at the base of Pear Buttress while you took two hours to lead a pitch of 5.8 -- yeah I would be pissed. I probably would have done exactly what you said and just bypassed the first pitch via Loose Ends since the first pitch of PB sucks anyway, but what if that wasn't possible? Is it cool if I get up at 5am and start aiding Bastille crack and just tell everyone else "too fucking bad"? There is a line -- being a bit slow is one thing -- stopping people from climbing a classic because you got there first and "they should just do something else" is just plain inconsiderate. It's called common courtesy. Grow up.
What if your aunt had balls?
The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460
Ryan Watts wrote: Lol. Wow dude really touched a nerve there huh? First of all it was really just an elaborate set up for the Kor's Flake being a better intro climb joke but I guess that didn't work out as planned. But on a serious note: I wouldn't call 40 minutes excessively slow, but if I was waiting at the base of Pear Buttress while you took two hours to lead a pitch of 5.8 -- yeah I would be pissed. I probably would have done exactly what you said and just bypassed the first pitch via Loose Ends since the first pitch of PB sucks anyway, but what if that wasn't possible? Is it cool if I get up at 5am and start aiding Bastille crack and just tell everyone else "too fucking bad"? There is a line -- being a bit slow is one thing -- stopping people from climbing a classic because you got there first and "they should just do something else" is just plain inconsiderate. It's called common courtesy. Grow up.
I hope to never meet you in person. I think I would probably throw up from the strong smell of douche you emit.*

  • Edited to clarify: here's what you said:

Sentence one: passive aggressive criticism
Sentence two: vaguely approving statement
Sentences 2-finish: general criticism based on what I can only guess was A: a bad day at work, or B: a misreading of the conversation
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: I hope to never meet you in person. I think I would probably throw up from the strong smell of douche you emit.* *Edited to clarify: here's what you said: Sentence one: passive aggressive criticism Sentence two: vaguely approving statement Sentences 2-finish: general criticism based on what I can only guess was A: a bad day at work, or B: a misreading of the conversation
So to clarify, here is what you said:

Sentences 1-Finish: I am mad as fuck at someone on the Internet.
Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

Ryan,

All he is saying is your attitude seems exceptionally poor. I agree. If I get to the base of a classic climb and there is a slow party already on it, I chide myself for not getting an earlier start and go find another route. If my partner sported the same impatient, egotistical attitude towards the situation you are putting forward here... Well, that would be the last time I climbed with that jerk.

James Ellwood · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 10

Some what relevant, since this thread compared the situation to fly fishing. I thought this was an interesting perspective and article at least. I don't envy the guides.

mensjournal.com/magazine/fl…

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
NickinCO wrote: I've never been "blocked out of a route" by a guide. (What does that even mean?)I've actually only ever ran into two guides, this guy and another dude on the yellow spur and he was very chill. What about route selection chosen by said guide? If you have to bail because your client doesn't know how to clean (as evidence by watching them climb Loose Ends) What makes you think he would have faired any better climbing P.B.? Or does that not matter because he's a guide? So now someone can only climb certain areas if the devote enough time to onsight ____ (how many grades harder?) so they climb quickly. What if you just enjoy a day outdoors on a nice multi-pitch climb like my wife? She should probably quit climbing all together to make room for others? Conversations like this is why I only climb on weekdays. P.S. In a few weeks I'll have some friends in town and they want to get on PB, Loose Ends, and maybe Visual Aids. Better set your alarm.
In your case (the one where the guide wasn't chill) it seems like an exceptionally douchey person that happened to be a guide, and a poor one at that. I wasn't targeting your case.

I'm speaking to the people who are reporting getting consistently blocked from doing the route(s) they wanted because a guide and a group of people are there gang banging it. If this is happening frequently, I'd say it's probably time to either 1.) get up earlier, 2.) choose a different route/crag/area, or 3.) get stronger so that you can focus on routes that don't get commandeered by large groups of learning climbers.
Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

Yep.

We just crossed the threshold.

MP "climbers" are indeed, dumber than ST "climbers".

Didn't think it was possible.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

and you are above it all?... must be nice.

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
Alexander Blum wrote:Ryan, All he is saying is your attitude seems exceptionally poor. I agree. If I get to the base of a classic climb and there is a slow party already on it, I chide myself for not getting an earlier start and go find another route. If my partner sported the same impatient, egotistical attitude towards the situation you are putting forward here... Well, that would be the last time I climbed with that jerk.
Hmm..maybe the mild trolling interfered with the point I was trying to make.

If I get to the base of a route and there is a slow party already on it, I might try to bypass them if possible (ala the Loose Ends scenario I described) or just climb something else. If I really, really wanted to do that climb and I knew we were going to be much faster, I might ask to pass them if appropriate. I have never actually done this since passing can sometimes turn into more of a cluster than its worth.

On the flip side of the equation, I usually try to be courteous to other parties and realize that I do not own the route just because I got there first. I have let people pass me on routes before because I was going slow and holding them up. Usually I try to avoid that scenario in the first place. I honestly find it a bit of a "jerk" move to say "well I got here first so sorry sucks for you, you'll have to wait". It seems like common courtesy to me. I'm not saying I would yell at some sketched out gumby on his first trad lead just because he's making me wait, but I'd think maybe the Bastille Crack on a Saturday morning wasn't the greatest idea for a first trad lead, sure.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

one thing you will see over and over again in squamish is folks who have no business leading multi totally in over their heads on 6+ classic multipitch

there are plenty of less travelled or shorter moderate multis here to get your ropework and leading skills up to a confident level

yet youll see tons of parties where the leader is fresh from MEC with a shiny rack, and dragging up some hawty to show off ... without even basic multi rope skills, or knowing how to build a gear anchor in less than 30 min

one thing ive learned is that i need to make sure to avoid those popular moderates on american holidays as well as canadian ones ... nothing against yanks, but i almost always encounter tons of such parties who havent climbed much continuous crack granite or multi running up apron moderates on those yank holidays

i remember one time running up some moderate where this new leader was dragging up two followers, climbing one at a time ... where they kept on shouting the length of the rope every few meters over and over again ... with each of the followers wearing at least a 40 L pack

"50 meters!!! ... 45 meters!!! ... 40 meters!!!" ....

;)

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

What's wrong with guide blocking? As long as you keep your hand on the brake strand the rest of this discussion is unneccessary.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Ryan Watts wrote: I'd think maybe the Bastille Crack on a Saturday morning wasn't the greatest idea for a first trad lead, sure.
Why not? Is there a certain time limit for the climb or quota for the route? TBC needs to see 5 ascents today, we can't allow one party monopolize it all day! Say you walk up to a popular classic like Bastille on Saturday morning and see a group of top-ropers on the first pitch, wouldn't you say eff it and keep on walking to climb something else?

This whole having mind set on one climb only attitude is silly especially at stacked crags like Eldo and Lumpy. I think people get too carried away with tick lists and get a tunnel vision. My partner and I were cragging in T Meadows two years ago. We got to the crag with plans A and B. Hike up to the wall and we are the only people there, so we hop on the climb A. As we finish pitch 1, another party shows up and starts climbing behind us. Then another one. We finish the climb, walk back to our packs and see another party starting up the climb! We walk up to the Plan B route (just 1-2 letter grades harder) and no one on it, so we climb it. Get down and there are more people on the route A!!! Personally, we thought the route B was much better and not that much harder and not a single soul before or after us.

Bottom line, if you are visiting popular area, have a plan B and/or get up early. If there is no plan B (remote, climb requires specific gear) and someone beats you to the climb, chill at the base and give the party #1 enough time and distance for them to enjoy the climb in relative solitude (gives you an opportunity to assess their speed). Bring a rain jacket and headlamps. Be ready to bail mid-route and leave gear (I don't see how a trade route would not have a ton bail tat on it already). Or just walk away, at least you got a nice hike in - there are far worse things you could've been doing on your day off (like being stuck in traffic or shopping mall hell).
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
doligo wrote: Why not? Is there a certain time limit for the climb or quota for the route? TBC needs to see 5 ascents today, we can't allow one party monopolize it all day! Say you walk up to a popular classic like Bastille on Saturday morning and see a group of top-ropers on the first pitch, wouldn't you say eff it and keep on walking to climb something else?
I would and have said eff it in almost that exact situation, but I think most people would agree that gang-roping the first pitch of the Bastille on a Saturday morning would be slightly less than courteous.
NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
Ryan Watts wrote: Hmm..maybe the mild trolling interfered with the point I was trying to make. If I get to the base of a route and there is a slow party already on it, I might try to bypass them if possible (ala the Loose Ends scenario I described) or just climb something else. If I really, really wanted to do that climb and I knew we were going to be much faster, I might ask to pass them if appropriate. I have never actually done this since passing can sometimes turn into more of a cluster than its worth. On the flip side of the equation, I usually try to be courteous to other parties and realize that I do not own the route just because I got there first. I have let people pass me on routes before because I was going slow and holding them up. Usually I try to avoid that scenario in the first place. I honestly find it a bit of a "jerk" move to say "well I got here first so sorry sucks for you, you'll have to wait". It seems like common courtesy to me. I'm not saying I would yell at some sketched out gumby on his first trad lead just because he's making me wait, but I'd think maybe the Bastille Crack on a Saturday morning wasn't the greatest idea for a first trad lead, sure.
but Loose Ends is solid 5.9 and your profile says you're only a 5.8 trad leader. Don't you think you'd be moving too slow?
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

haha

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

Some places (like New River) have a very small number of beginner climbs - and most days the guides set them up right after daylight. I had my grandson with me one day and they had ropes on about the only close climbs he might be able to do (he was 7 and never been on a rope before)- I just went over and asked the guide if he might use the top rope they had up - answer - sure, you want me to take a couple pictures for you? We only had to wait a few minutes and he told us to jump right in. Sure if I had asked if my party of 4 adults could jump it might have been different but the guide was cool with the whole thing and even offered a little beta to the boy part way up. Our party moved on then - I still owe that guy a beer.

Rob Dillon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 760

Jamie Jones, are you talking exclusively about ice climbing? Cuz it seems like everyone else on this thread is discussing rock. And ice is a pretty limited commodity.

I would mention that lots of clients have strong relationships with guides, just like you and I do with our non-remunerated pards, and they like to go places together. Hiring strangers isn't much different for these folks than putting a note up on the board instead of climbing with your regulars.

And I'm no economist, but I would submit that the problem is not that there's 'too many bloody guides', but that the problem is one of demand: too many bloody clients.

Rob Dillon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 760

The way you go on about this makes me think 'aggressive ego' is merely your own projection, as long as we're shrink-tagging. I think I'm finished participating in this rant.

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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