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Climber decked at momentum?

paintrain · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 75
Daniel Winder wrote:... RIP Rockreation
Rockreation did not allow gri gris, but allowed shirtless climbing. They rarely had an accident (ref. Paul Harvey circa 1994 - equipment failure).

The Momentum accident did not involve a gri gri, but due to gym requirements a covered torso at a minimum.

Ergo, shirtless climbing prevents climbing accidents.

Problem solved.

PT
leon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 15

I prefer putting people on grigri. I myself now lead belay on grigri, having learned and dialed in the proper technique. I still bring ATC with me for top belay and rappelling. This may seem redundant but it does not seem to bother me.
I may say while climbing with new people assess their intelligence. It totally translates to how fast they learn, retain info and follow directions.

Tom Hore · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 190
paintrain wrote: ... but allowed shirtless climbing. ... PT
Man do I miss shirtless climbing. sigh.....
Tom Hore · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 190
paintrain wrote: (ref. Paul Harvey circa 1994 - equipment failure). PT
I miss Paul Harvey even more though.... sigh....
Paul Wilhelmsen · · sandy, ut · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 231

If there were a bunch if chicks at the gym climbing shirtless I promise you there would be more belay accidents (from distraction) a risk I'm totally willing to accept :)

All jokes aside, thanks for the info guys. I was curious as to what happened. I guess, like always we need to keep our eyes peeled for potential accidents and remember to check our partners.
Again, best wishes to the injured climber

CareBear M · · Worcester, MA · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 0
paintrain wrote: Rockreation did not allow gri gris, but allowed shirtless climbing. They rarely had an accident (ref. Paul Harvey circa 1994 - equipment failure). The Momentum accident did not involve a gri gri, but due to gym requirements a covered torso at a minimum. Ergo, shirtless climbing prevents climbing accidents. Problem solved. PT
Flawless logic, this must also be why I have never heard of a belaying accident at The Front in SLC.
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Tom Hore wrote: I miss Paul Harvey even more though.... sigh....
I've seen him recently. Looked sweet decked out in his motorcicle outfit.

Its interesting, though...Rockreation was sometimes really lax about their belay test and monitoring of lead climbers. Very rare there was an accident. I think I recall a broken ankle from a lead fall there, and maybe one that was a suspected back injury but that's over 20 years worth. I've seen dislocated shoulders (ugh) and folks get hurt bouldering, and, seen plenty close calls in the lead area but I've never seen an injury there. Maybe some of the regulars monitored the closed in lead area better when they saw an unsafe situaton? Hard to not, as, with 4 or 5 ropes in play, was easy to bump into folks.

Momentum is/has been hard corp about their belay test and monitoring, to the point of being a touch excessive about it, and, sometimes fairly unpleasant (condescending and misogynistic in fact).

I've never heard of a gym that has more folks fall to the floor than Momentum. Just makes me wonder, why? And, what could they, and, frankly "we" do better in preventing accidents? We're all one stout lawsuit away from not having a gym to climb in...right?

We all double and triple check our tie ins now (especially after a Momentum accident!). Harness doubled back. Belay device rigged properly.

Thoughts?
Rubber Tramp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 5

My two cents? Well, maybe it's just the fact that gyms make climbing really accessible (it's where I started out) and in our current social environment we tend to forget/overlook that fact that shit needs to be taken seriously and focus on the cosmetics of life. Are we having enough fun, are we fitting in with the crowd, do my shoes make me look like I know what I'm doing? I don't know the belayer and I'm not perfect, we all make mistakes. Just saying that sometimes we get distracted and lose focus on the hazards of life and that's when accidents take on the personality of a Jack in the Box.

Finn The Human · · The Land of Ooo · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 106

Former Rockreation employee here.

Brian in SLC wrote: Maybe some of the regulars monitored the closed in lead area better when they saw an unsafe situaton? Hard to not, as, with 4 or 5 ropes in play, was easy to bump into folks.
We did have some members who would keep an eye on things a bit.

In addition, we only ever had 5 folks leading at a time, and the front desk was 20 from where people were climbing. If someone was being sketch you'd better believe I'd give them a talking to. On rare occasions, I've even told people they need to stop leading, because they were being unsafe.

As far as belay tests go, we were less strict about which belay technique you used, but (I at least) put a greater emphasis on the fundamentals. I didn't care so much if you held the rope overhand or underhand, as long as you could give a soft catch, you could gauge slack appropriately, could feed slack efficiently, etc...

I don't know much about Momentum's lead cert process (although they did just change me $5 to re-cert after they lost my original lead cert info from 5 years ago... grr...) but it seems like they just have a checklist they want to get through, more than anything else.
lewisslc · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Momentum certainly seems like they are pretty strict when giving belay tests (i have been next to multiple people who have failed for seemingly ridiculous reasons), but on the other hand when i took my test, i bullshitted with the guy the whole time about certain lines outside... maybe because i seemed to know what i was doing more than others? I don't know... Do you all think it matters, that in some cases, the employees giving the test have never (or are new to climbing) climbed outside?

Wic Wahlquist · · Rio Rancho, New Mexico · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 215
Greg D wrote:If an ATC falls in the woods, and nobody with a gri gri is around to hear it, is the atc still responsible for user error. Feel free to swap atc and gri gri. The answer is the same.
Greg, that is the funniest thing I've heard all day! I've only belayed with a grigri a couple of times. I definitely prefer the ATC myself, but probably just because that was what I was taught on. I saw a video the other day of a guy climbing solo (not free solo mind you) on a grigri. I thought that was cool because it looked pretty easy to self-belay while climbing. Maybe I'll try that out on a day that I can't find a climbing partner.
Allyson Dopp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

Hi y'all. I am actually the person who fell opening night. It was 100% belayer error. She was using an ATC. I'm still not sure how it happened. She said that someone asked her a question, so she turned to talk to them and the next thing she knew I was on the floor. She didn't burn her hand and there was no resistance on the rope at all. So I'm not really sure if she let go of the rope... Anyway, I'm doing well. Just a sprained ankle and a really sore back. And a nice hospital bill on the way! I actually went climbing at momentum twice this past weekend. Easing back into it. Thanks for the concern!

BobGray · · Salt Lake City, Utah · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 711

Thank goodness you're ok! It made me sick to my stomach when I saw you hit.

Paul Wilhelmsen · · sandy, ut · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 231

Allyson, So glad to hear you're ok. From the stories I heard, I had worried you were going to be a lot more injured, I'm stoked I was wrong.
Can't imagine how someone could unknowingly completely let go of the rope tho...

Climb safe, maybe someday we'll bump into each other there.

Billcoe · · Pacific Northwet · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 930
Allyson Dopp wrote:Hi y'all. I am actually the person who fell opening night. It was 100% belayer error. She was using an ATC. I'm still not sure how it happened. She said that someone asked her a question, so she turned to talk to them and the next thing she knew I was on the floor. She didn't burn her hand and there was no resistance on the rope at all. So I'm not really sure if she let go of the rope... Anyway, I'm doing well. Just a sprained ankle and a really sore back. And a nice hospital bill on the way! I actually went climbing at momentum twice this past weekend. Easing back into it. Thanks for the concern!
Glad you're going to be fine. I'm curious how long (how many years) has your belayer been climbing?
Jon Lachelt · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 0

Thanks Allyson, for giving the real story. I'm so glad to hear you are doing well.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

this thread reminds me off people trying to text and drive---> major distraction, should be fine 99 out of a 100 times until someone gets hurt bad, then its on you

Allyson Dopp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

I think she has been climbing for three or four years. I have been climbing with her for about a year now.

carl · · Durango, CO · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 15

I learned to lead at Rockreation in Costa Mesa. In my first real lead fall, my ankle hit a ledge and twisted pretty badly, took me out of exercise for around one week. The belayer was even newer than I was, and despite being actively coached by a staff member, he freaked a little when he got pulled up, released his brake hand for a second, and dropped me farther than I expected. I, as an inexperienced climber, got into a bad position when I fell farther than I was ready for and hit my ankle.

That was about a year ago. That partner is now the person I am most comfortable climbing with because we worked through that mistake together, and made sure that neither of us would make it again. Now, sport climbing outdoors, I know I can trust the guy to make the right judgment when I fall.

Wic Wahlquist · · Rio Rancho, New Mexico · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 215

Congrats on the speedy recovery Allyson! It sounds like you have a good attitude about the accident. Everybody makes mistakes, and unfortunately you were hurt because of it. Not that anybody cares what my opinion is, but if it was me, I would forgive my belayer and have a respectful conversation about what went wrong and work through it together. I'm sure your belayer feels terrible. Best of luck to you in your future climbing!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern Utah & Idaho
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