Bolt chopping

mountainhick wrote: Seems you Slarti want to take that aspect away from the sport and declare grid bolting it is better for the greater good. If that is true for you that's fine, that's how you choose to climb. I think there should be that arena for you to pursue clinically safe sport routes, But you take it to the next philosophical step and say it is better for me, you are trying to take away the very core of why I like run outs (at least sometimes).

Yes, I do try to minimize danger when I climb. I widened out from sport to trad, not because I'm attracted to danger, but because that new skill set opened up mile of new rock for me.

I don't advocate or approve grid bolting every route out there. The best response here has been the quote from John Long. Which, to me, is summed up like this: each route should be developed up to a point that fits its difficulty, commitment level, and accessibility. Does a 5.4 have great pro and a big tree at the top? Project finished. 5.4 with good pro and no tree? Pop some anchors on it. 5.4 with good pro at the bottom and a horrid runout up top? Like it or not, some newby is going to get hurt on it. That's not the FA's fault, but it is preventable. And, no, I don't think people should go around retrofitting EVERY route out there, but if some individual is willing to put the time and effort into a specific route, why would anybody attack him? And don't say it's because then every route will end up with a shiny bolt every 4 feet. That will NEVER happen. Why? Because, on the whole, people are lazy. The individuals who aren't lazy shouldn't be stifled. There will always be a lonely place just of the grid for you to have an adventure. And, if not, it won't be bolters who destroyed your paradise, but loggers and land developers. Increased recreational of accessible areas is, I believe, the best long-term protection for the open wilderness we have left.

Speaking of Dr. Doom, he is said all of this better than I ever could. Specifically:

"A drill is like a big stick; when a man has one he is almost sure to hit something with it. Don't imagine that, possessed of the means to manage risk, or to render convenience, such a man can resist the temptation to do so even if it means revising or erasing history by retro-bolting routes climbed by men of more traditional belief. The technological superpower knows best. He bolts the 5.8 crack saying, "Now you're going to have MY experience." He imposes his comfort level on others by placing bolts at intervals to coincide with his determination of acceptable risk. In so doing he denies others a more traditional experience wherein they are free to place more or less protection based on technical ability, personal safety, and experience. Through his almighty drill he participates in every ascent thereafter, having successfully rewritten the route's history to begin with him.

The ability to rewrite history doesn't entitle its alteration."

marktwight.com/discourse.ph…

The man has remarkable insight into your mindset, Slarty.

Why would taking a large drill out into the woods, drilling holes in something that took millions of years of pretty much magical circumstances to form, slag bolts into it, then going and sticking some shiny ass thing that you made from destroying other rocks, on to it, for completely selfish reasons...Even under any circumstances be considered ethical to you. If you do not feel like investing in the time and hard work that it takes to learn to climb rocks and leave them like you found them, then by all means please climb at areas that are already bolted. Climbing is dangerous. Thats why we like it. I do not like the easy way. I do not want to hike miles up an approach, early in the morning with my ropes and rack, and see bolts shining in the sun. If you don't have the skill level to climb a climb its not your responsibility to dumb it down and make things more user friendly. Once its freed it should be a free climb.

Jason Ware wrote:Why would taking a large drill out into the woods, drilling holes in something that took millions of years of pretty much magical circumstances to form, slag bolts into it, then going and sticking some shiny ass thing that you made from destroying other rocks, on to it, for completely selfish reasons...Even under any circumstances be considered ethical to you. If you do not feel like investing in the time and hard work that it takes to learn to climb rocks and leave them like you found them, then by all means please climb at areas that are already bolted. Climbing is dangerous. Thats why we like it. I do not like the easy way. I do not want to hike miles up an approach, early in the morning with my ropes and rack, and see bolts shining in the sun. If you don't have the skill level to climb a climb its not your responsibility to dumb it down and make things more user friendly. Once its freed it should be a free climb.

Do you not approve of bolts under any circumstance? Even belay bolts?

What about 2-3 bolt per pitch Tuolumne face climbs with no available natural pro?

Brand new account? Ridiculous, inflammatory statements devoid of any nuance? A real, live troll!

I do use bolts at the top of trad routes, but it does not change the fact that the act is destroying nature so we can have a good time. I'm not a troll I don't even care what that means. I use electricity, i enjoy modern conveniences, but all conveniences have trade offs, that usually leave the planet drained or scarred. I'm just going off the simple leave no trace principle. I am a new account. I mainly just use the app to find routes to climb. A friend of mine spoke of a thread about x4 cams breaking...as a lead climber I thought I would find useful information to keep me and the people I take climbing safe. I usually just read this trash but this topic is as important as it is old. The more access you open up, make safer or easier, the more traffic, damage, vegetation destruction, and eco system destruction we incur. All of these areas are rare and beautiful. Lets keep it that way.

SexPanther aka Kiedis wrote: Smoking your whole stash is the best way to ensure that the weed will last. Interesting reasoning, Liutenant Data. Prepare to beam up! An analogy: I drink my milk with a splash of home urine. It's the best, I feel that milk is just inferior and possibly dangerous without that fortifying shot of horsepiss I faithfully add to mine each morning. I am so convinced of the rightness of my ways that I go out of my way to include horsepiss in the milk of others, believing that this will lead to the increased usage of milk as well as protection of the cows. The trouble with letting your personal tastes become the rules for everyone is that homogeneity tends to be one of the most common reasons people climb in the first place-to escape the blandness, sameness, tame, tepid stultifying humidity of the additudes and actions of the indoor monkeys. Without the spectrum of El Potrero Chico to Great Trango Tower to chipped roadcut bouldering caves, we would fast lose perspective and color, variety, and spice, if you will. The really good news is that despite your "we"'s, "community", and "benefit", the core truth is that there will always be Henry Barbers out there who place a lot more value on integrity and honor than on some nincompoop illusion of safety. The chopping will continue, the would-be retrobolters are much more interested in spraying down the forums than actually putting bit to stone, and the balance of power stays intact. Nice try, Data, but I have a bit of philosophy for you that always reassures me when the intertards threaded to rise up and do battle with R ratings everywhere: Talk-Action=0 -Dr. Mark Twight

haha, hehe, hoohoo, you're hilarious!!

Smoking your whole stash won't make your weed last, but if you slip some into the cops brownie then he might be just mellow enough to not throw you in a cell.
Likewise, awareness and exposure are the foundation of conservation. Polar bears are dying. All of them. If you want people to save them, they have to care, to know. For them to care and know, we have to go annoy the bears by sticking cameras in their faces. We have to shoot them with darts so they can be studied or relocated away from people who will shoot them with bullets. It's an ugly work, really, but don't be naive and say we should just leave them alone: they would be slaughtered before Justin Bieber gets out of puberty.

You don't want your sport to change? It has, and it will continue to. You can slow that process by making concessions. A safer sport will bring more people to the rock, more people will care about the outdoors, and those people will understand why some areas should be preserved pristine. In contrast, if you charge naked out of the woods, waving your pointed stick at all intruders, these same people will say that "mountains are for crazy people and hold no value for me, strip mine them to power my Xbox!!" True wilderness will not be overrun, certainly not in your lifetime, maybe not ever; and, if it might be, chopping won't be what saved it. Bolting, or some other type of low impact development in accessible areas, might. Like a trail, that makes a permanent scar up a mountain but, ultimately, prevents its destruction through erosion, such sacrifices might be ugly and distasteful to you, but, if you want to keep ANYTHING left for yourself, don't be the crazy naked man with a stick.

You truly think the "balance of power" is in your favor? Funny.

Climber #1: "Hey, man, you need to check out this awesome splitter crack I just sent! It was a lot of work. The thing had tons of dirt up in it, some parts were just about clogged. There's some moss and lichen up top, but it'll probably improve with a bit of traffic. I really think I created a piece of history with this one."

Climber #2: "Soooo... why not just climb the face, just to the right? It's exposed and blank, so there's nothing growing there and no crevices for creatures to live."

Climber #1: "And RAPE THE ROCK WITH BOLTS??!! DIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!"

To people upset by this, go learn how jokes work, and keep it in mind when replying.

Why couldn't it have been a great first 5.10 top rope until you had grown a sack. Just sayin...

It's called bolt chomping. bunch of noobs.

Jesus! Indoor gyms have filled this once great sport with a bunch of whiny little man-boys.

J Meagher wrote:If I may offer my inexperienced noob opinion, it seems to me that the solution to the bolting/bolt chopping wars is very simple: If, for whatever reason, a bolt offends you, just don't clip it. Just because a route is bolted doesn't mean you have to use the bolts, the option is always there to lead it on gear. For example, I cite a classic 5.10a slab at my home crag. From my understanding, it was led on trad gear in the late 80's, then retrobolted in later years (I do not know if this was done with or without the FA ist's permission). Now, its a popular first 5.10 for beginners. I also know individuals who have led this route on gear, and it goes at PG13 or R. Is it so horrible that this route was bolted, or is it good that this route is now available to beginners like me and still able to be led on gear for the really good/crazy/brave ones among us?

Bolts give the leader an opportunity to bail in the face of fear. For many (most?) trad climbers, a little (or a lot of) fear is part of the experience. Hone your skills, and the reward will be much greater when you can actually climb the route.

thomas ellis wrote:Why couldn't it have been a great first 5.10 top rope until you had grown a sack. Just sayin...

What if there are no anchors? Does the unsolicited addition of these really affect the trad leaders experience, or the natural setting, so greatly that dozens, if hundreds, of people should be denied the experience if they can't get a mentor to go out and be their rope gun that day? Or is the number of climbers really so swollen that we can't accept any more until an old timer dies?

Slartibartfast wrote: What if there are no anchors? Does the unsolicited addition of these really affect the trad leaders experience, or the natural setting, so greatly that dozens, if hundreds, of people should be denied the experience

That is precisely what that means. 5 pages of your BS and you've failed miserably to convince a single person of your delusional ideals. If you want safety, go to a gym, climb a route that you consider safe, or safer yet- stay home.

Slartibartfast wrote: What if there are no anchors? Does the unsolicited addition of these really affect the trad leaders experience, or the natural setting, so greatly that dozens, if hundreds, of people should be denied the experience if they can't get a mentor to go out and be their rope gun that day? Or is the number of climbers really so swollen that we can't accept any more until an old timer dies?

Your continuous whining for instant gratification means that you are also wish to deny yourself a richer fuller experience in the future for the shallow satisfaction of a tick today.

if you think it needs a bolt or two or three and it feels right just do it.

hand drills only though, its the only ethical way to bolt

by the time a person learns to bolt a climb, they've generally grown out of the OP's style of thinking. i take solace in that.

Ah the ol if I feels good do it.. that is how we got gay on gay marriage and the pot legal.

The climbing heroes of yore have insured that higher standards than this kind of liberal relativism that has plagued our great land.

Eric Engberg wrote: Your continuous whining for instant gratification means that you are also wish to deny yourself a richer fuller experience in the future for the shallow satisfaction of a tick today.

You realize that "if you want safer, stay home" is the exact same argument as "if you don't like a bolt, don't clip it", right? They are both so black and white that they must both be either incredibly stupid or incredibly right. Now that you mention it, I honestly think it might be the latter. Everybody do what makes YOU happy, and don't poop yourself when what OTHER people do makes you unhappy. And there is still a place for you and your "ethic", even if your old stomping grounds have grown up while you stayed the same.

And I love climbing, but...seriously? If going up a rock is the most enriching experience in your life, there is nothing wrong with your climbing, but there IS something wrong with your life. Go help somebody, make something. You GENUINELY think that the WAY you go up makes you BETTER than other people? All the satisfaction we get from climbing is shallow.

taco