Over guiding

Soon to be illegally guiding at a crag near you...
Ye!adventureguides.troll

Everything is a mixed bag , two sides to every coin . I do not agree with the poster who wishes to bring mining, forestry , ect into the equation because they simply don't know the real facts . Having worked in the mining industry for over 30 years I can assure you that no guide or group of guides pays anywhere near what the average mining company pays for land use ! Typical response of someone with absolutely NO knowledge of facts just simply letting there mouth overload there ass ! As usual !!!!

But on topic , the simple fact is this as long as there is money to be made there is going to be somebody who will be happy to take it , as long as there are hundreds of people who are interested in paying money to be guided for whatever reason there are going to be certain days / times your not going to be able to climb your favorite route wherever this might be . Add to this the increasing number of people who climb and guess what ? Your still going to show up at your favorite route one day and not be able to climb it as soon as you arrive !

Simple fact everybody needs to have a plan B , I do not think its fair to single out just guides , even though at times I've been quite miffed at some of the shenanigans pulled by them but at the same time I've also been quite pissed at inconsiderate climbers who pull the same tactics . Not one of us is entitled to anything

Just be glad that the land managers don't invoke a permit system that allows you to only climb on a certain day, and you might have to wait months or even years to get one .

Wow imagine the amount of pissing/chest thumping /entitlement BS that would go on here if people had to wait two years for there turn to climb .

Greg D wrote: This kind of disrespectful behavior is unacceptable. You need to stand up and be firm but polite. This is simple for me. If there is a rope hanging from a route and nobody is around, yank it and climb it. If somebody is around but nobody is on the route politely ask are you guys climbing this right now. If they are not climbing it right now I would politely let them know that I'm going to climb it right now. But we are happy to put your rope back up when we clean it. Last year Chicks on Crack left a rope up overnight in Moab with a note trying to reserve the route. . We arrived to climb that route. Nobody was there. We climbed a nearby route instead and watched several parties show up, read the note and move on. After about two hours we decided we had been more than patient, yanked the rope and climbed it. One girl showed up around noon, by herself. She was baffled that the rope was not still up. Hmmm.

20 or 25 years ago one didn't see that type of behavior from OB or NOLS. As I've noticed over the years, the change in their behavior at the crags is unfortunate.

r.c

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Pure blather.

Except that Europeans are not happy with the fact that IFMGA guides can work in any UIAGM country while, because of our system of permitting, they can not easily work here.

quote=Jamie Jones "The problem is the number of guides the AMGA is pumping out. Every suburban white over privileged America seems to want to become a guide. I hear it all the time, 'I'm taking a single pitch top rope course so I can become a guide.' Then the ones with family money end up buying up an existing guide service, or starting one of their own. This is exactly whats happened where I live. Wealthy Guys from every place but the mountains, have opened up guide services and somehow use older guide services permits. It even goes from area to area. For example, a crested butte guide was ski guiding in the San Juan mountains where they don't have the permits, they just say they are working off of some other guide companies permits. I know that the guiding companies are using up and going beyond their user days with the forest service, because I've watched the number of guides explode, and I've talked with the forest service about user days. This another example of guide arrogance, they don't think they need to follow government rules.

One more thing. Guides in Europe have a much more difficult road in becoming a guide than in the states. I know IFMGA guides who are only so so as far as skill, but they paid their $30,000 and get to pass the exams, seems to be an east coast buddy buddy system. Also, European guides are not happy with IFMGA Americans coming to Europe and guiding."/quote

Care to back up those statements with facts? You seem to really dislike guides for some reason. You don't like them on your climbs, don't want them to have access. You seem to feel entitled to not be disturbed on climbs. You're pretty disparaging to the entire idea of making a living taking people climbing like it's somehow below other professions despite the fact that you have some very misinformed ideas of how the profession works. What do you do for a living that's so great?

WTH, quotes won't work!

NickinCO wrote: It's one of the most famous 5.8's at Lumpy... A newer leader is going to be on it regardless. It took us less than an hour to clean and lead the pitch, and subsequent pitches went much faster... For someone who only leads 5.8 at the time is that really that slow? When you go on vacation somewhere (I didn't live here then) do you skip the famous routes and only climb obscurities at your limit because you don't want to get in someones way? The bottom line is if you really wanted to do ONE route, you'll make sure you get there before anyone else. This is common place on some of the longer moderates in Red Rock also. Otherwise you wait...

You should still be respectful of others. What if someone else is on vacation and wants to do that ONE route and they happen to get there just 10 minutes after you? You snooze you lose?

IMO, if you are getting on a route you know is likely to be high traffic, and you know you are going to be unreasonably slow on it, you are being kind of a dick. Surely there are classics below your limit too? I mean if 5.8 is your absolute limit you could get on something easier... like Kor's Flake ;)

Ryan Watts wrote: You should still be respectful of others. What if someone else is on vacation and wants to do that ONE route and they happen to get there just 10 minutes after you? You snooze you lose? IMO, if you are getting on a route you know is likely to be high traffic, and you know you are going to be unreasonably slow on it, you are being kind of a dick. Surely there are classics below your limit too? I mean if 5.8 is your absolute limit you could get on something easier... like Kor's Flake ;)

Methinks that Kor's Flak probably isn't going to seem any easier to someone who's unaccustomed to granite cracks.

Ryan Watts wrote: You should still be respectful of others. What if someone else is on vacation and wants to do that ONE route and they happen to get there just 10 minutes after you? You snooze you lose?

Yes

Ryan Watts wrote: IMO, if you are getting on a route you know is likely to be high traffic, and you know you are going to be unreasonably slow on it, you are being kind of a dick.

Would you say the same to the many who are trying to free Moonlight Butt? Or leading at the limit is the realm of only 5.12 and above climbers? I've always felt that if you get to the climb first, it's yours for whatever time you take on it. If you show up to climb Pear Butt, and there is a slow party on it and is way under your limit, why not climb something else (after all it is way below your limit!)

on some long multis traffic jams caused by a very slow party isnt just an inconvenience, it can be downright dangerous

not all routes are well equipped with rap anchors to retreat ... you could get stuck in afternoon thunderstorms or lightning, or stuck at the top/decend at night under poor conditions ... nor can you always see who is on a route before jumping on it ...

in general, first come first serve applies ... but when theres a serious safety issue to your and your partner ... id simply climb through a party that was being absolutely obstinate when they are obviously moving at a snails pace, being polite of course

most parties are fairly reasonable

but its not until youre on a climb and the party at a belay sits down to have lunch making stacked parties behind em wait while they eat (not climb) for a good time and insists no one passes them that youll start changing your mind on "thoult shall not pass"

;)

doligo wrote: Yes Would you say the same to the many who are trying to free Moonlight Butt? Or leading at the limit is the realm of only 5.12 and above climbers? I've always felt that if you get to the climb first, it's yours for whatever time you take on it. If you show up to climb Pear Butt, and there is a slow party on it and is way under your limit, why not climb something else (after all it is way below your limit!)

This is an interesting topic. I've been climbing trad a few years now, and I still go pretty slow on steeper or more technical 5.8 terrain. I'm not a badass or bold climber, and while I'm always trying to improve speed and efficiency on multipitch, I'm still pretty slow. I think if you get there first you should climb if you want. Try to respect other parties both above and below you, but do your thing. No matter how strong or bold you are, there are always climbers that are way stronger and more bold out there. Also, you can't learn to climb outside in a gym, and that learning is a long process. If we give people a break and treat them with respect then we can keep climbing fun in the long run instead of making it into a pissing contest.

Obviously it's not friendly to practice aid climbing on a busy free route. That falls under basic common sense and respect too. Nevertheless, if you are a stronger party not climbing at your limit and the traffic ahead is too much for you, then you should think about climbing something harder or less crowded. If you really want to get on a popular climb, make the effort to get there first. It's pretty simple really.

doligo wrote:Would you say the same to the many who are trying to free Moonlight Butt? Or leading at the limit is the realm of only 5.12 and above climbers?

I agree with Ryan on this. There's nothing wrong with pushing your limits (regardless of how hard you climb), but it's probably best to avoid doing so on a route that is likely going to have a line on it. At risk of getting this thread more off topic, what do people consider "at your limit" or a "5.8 climber?" Is it someone who has lead a few 5.8s or someone who is generally solid at 5.8 on many different types of rock? The latter usually isn't the one causing traffic jams on mega classic routes.

In regards to the 5.12 and above climbers-who on this form has had to wait in line on a multipitch 5.12? Moonlight buttress gets way more aid climbing traffic than free climbers and I don't think I've ever seen more than a party on it, but maybe I always visited in the off season.

This is so fucking stupid I can't believe I'm still replying, but I am at work so why not.

At the time I lead 5.9+ at eldo (earlier that week) and could onsight 11- sport. Yes I was slow (40 minutes slow, not 2 hours slow) for the first pitch because I had no idea what crack technique was. There's also a handful of routes you can do to bypass the first pitch of P.B. Loose Ends being one of them (and a much better option I should add). As far as 5.8 being my limit and not climbing it while on vacation because I'll be slow…

If it wasn't my limit at the time I would have been climbing whatever was my limit be it 5.9 or 5.11. If someone gets there after me and complains too fucking bad, you should have gotten there earlier if the route was that important for you to do on that specific day. I've been shut down a couple times at Red Rocks because I didn't get there early enough and didn't want to get stuck behind slow parties (or groups of 4- even better). I didn't bitch and whine about it, I blamed myself for not getting their earlier and went and climbed something else. Climbers are such fucking pussies sometimes.

John Marsella wrote:Isn't it your responsibility as the team on the ground, to look up and say, "wow, what a noobclusterfuck up there," and make the sensible decision to choose another route?

That would be common sense…

John Marsella wrote:Isn't it your responsibility, as the team on the ground, to look up and say, "wow, what a noobclusterfuck up there," and make the sensible decision to choose another route?

It's much more cool to not say anything about it at the time and then come complain about it on mountain project.

Like this?

"The latest instance was at Jtree over a holiday weekend this last February. I was actually going to write NOLS a complaint but why not blast them here: yes!"

start asking to see their permits when they monopolize cliffs

will archer wrote: In regards to the 5.12 and above climbers-who on this form has had to wait in line on a multipitch 5.12? Moonlight buttress gets way more aid climbing traffic than free climbers and I don't think I've ever seen more than a party on it, but maybe I always visited in the off season.

That hasn't really been true in my experience. I've been on the route 3-4 times now and it's been about a 50/50 split between aid and free with maybe even more free(ish) climbers. This conversation is getting ridiculous. In the end it comes down to something we all hopefully learned in preschool: play nice and share with others. If you get to the base of a route first, you get first crack at it. If you're really slow and they're fast, do the right thing and offer to let them pass while you sit and wait. This really shouldn't be that complicated.

Ryan Watts wrote:IMO, if you are getting on a route you know is likely to be high traffic, and you know you are going to be unreasonably slow on it, you are being kind of a dick.

NickinCO wrote:Climbers are such fucking pussies sometimes.

el o el. So inconsiderate slow climbers who get the alpine start are dicks, whining stronger climber who slept in are pussies - is the guide on the ground heckling Nick an asshole? Team America monologue is almost appropriate...

I can't say I've run into any issues with over-guiding. Over-bitching, however, has become an epidemic around these parts.

If you are consistently getting blocked out of routes by guides and their clients, perhaps it is time to give up on that crag/route/area, re-evaluate where you should be climbing, and maybe try and get a little stronger so you can have fun at a crag that is guaranteed to be relatively n00bless.

just my two cents on the subject.

Jon Zucco wrote:I can't say I've run into any issues with over-guiding. Over-bitching, however, has become an epidemic around these parts. If you are consistently getting blocked out of routes by guides and their clients, perhaps it is time to give up on that crag/route/area, re-evaluate where you should be climbing, and maybe try and get a little stronger so you can have fun at a crag that is guaranteed to be relatively n00bless. just my two cents on the subject.

I've never been "blocked out of a route" by a guide. (What does that even mean?)I've actually only ever ran into two guides, this guy and another dude on the yellow spur and he was very chill. What about route selection chosen by said guide? If you have to bail because your client doesn't know how to clean (as evidence by watching them climb Loose Ends) What makes you think he would have faired any better climbing P.B.? Or does that not matter because he's a guide?

So now someone can only climb certain areas if the devote enough time to onsight ____ (how many grades harder?) so they climb quickly. What if you just enjoy a day outdoors on a nice multi-pitch climb like my wife? She should probably quit climbing all together to make room for others?

Conversations like this is why I only climb on weekdays.

P.S. In a few weeks I'll have some friends in town and they want to get on PB, Loose Ends, and maybe Visual Aids. Better set your alarm.