Wait, what grade do you lead?!?!

Whoah, easy there spraylord

Locker, everyone knows that the Gunks and ELDO gradez are the be and end all of the sport. They named the shoes 5.10 for a reason... nothing is harder, not even 15f or g at those permadrawed outdoor gyms

I saw once a professed 13 gym climber not able to do a 10 off width so... case closed

Returning to the thread OP, I don't think that the original question--regarding rampant overstatement of ability--is even valid. I have had many many experiences climbing with new partners, sometimes cragging and sometimes directly to a 10-20 pitch route, and have not encountered much in the way of ability overstatement. Of course, if you are getting misleading responses, you may just be asking the wrong questions (as 20 kn has mentioned). If you ask a vague "What do you lead" or "What do you climb", the response could be anything, from consistent runout trad onsight to max sport redpoint. The prospective partner may not be dishonest; they may just be unsure exactly what you are asking. It is much better to ask specific and situational questions. If you ask something along the lines of "Will you be able to move quickly, onsight, on this specific route without falling", you'll likely get an honest and realistic "yes" "probably" "maybe" or "no, you'll need to lead the crux".

Also, on the occasions when someone really is full of shit, it is pretty easy to know (as Reboot mentions), provided you have any intuition about people. All it really takes to get a good sense of a person is about 10 minutes of talking about climbing, and if they seem solid, they probably are. If warning lights start going off, you should probably change plans and go bouldering that day instead.

So, I might surmise that the issues that the OP is running in to is not due to rampant ego-driven dishonesty (since I don't think that this is present). Instead, perhaps the OP has poor skills when it comes to "interviewing" potential partners.

Adam Burch wrote:Again, thanks for the thoughtful responses. This really isn't about "how do you detect if someone is good or not". It's about "why do fools feel the need to stretch the truth on their ability". Some of you get it - danke. There are a lot of ego issues with climbing - that's what make a guy like Hudon/etc refreshing. The only reason I care to up my climbing ability is because it opens up new routes or areas to me that were off limits before. Don't need to impress the ladies/fellas with my 12d crimp skillz. Locker, stop taking this so seriously and go climb something ;)

No offense but if all you're asking is "why do some people exaggerate their climbing ability?" that seems like kind of a dumb question.

Why do people exaggerate anything? It's not specific to climbing. Fish stories, "that chick was totally all over me bro", etc, etc. People typically exaggerate in an attempt to impress others and/or feel better about themselves.

Seems like a pretty basic understanding of human social interaction could have gotten you that far, no?

I don't think it's a dumb question / topic at all, although I'm starting to change my mind. I tend to put climbers on a bit of a pedestal, I guess - to love such an activity would seem to resonate with higher functioning folks...or you'd think so. Thoughtfulness, security in ones self (and in a sweet offset nut placed so SWEET), etc are all traits you'd imagine you'd find more often in a climber than you would in an average bloke.

What I'm finding is, the more I interact with my "peer group", the more I realize we're all as average/boring as the random human. Insecure. Ego issues. Dishonest. Etc.

Moral of the story is probably to climb with friends, don't make friends with climbers.

Adam Burch wrote:Climbers, You are kicking around the idea of climbing with someone new. Route is a little committing. You're trying to get a sense of the other person; do you really want to tie in with this person? They tell you they lead 5.X What do you believe? In my experience, people tend to puff themselves up a bit, maybe a grade or two more than they're actually comfortable leading. Besides ego, why do people fib? Maybe that's the only reason?

I don't know what to believe of others. I know what I say.

I tend to conservative in my claims. I don't want the personal experience of getting on some climb with someone, and flailing on something two to three grades below my claimed level, and wasting a day, or getting into trouble on something because I can't climb or lead at the level I've claimed.

Generally speaking, I'd rather under-promise and over-deliver than the reverse. (Can you tell I'm not in sales?)

No doubt some round up or exaggerate for ego driven reasons, but I have to imagine that a lot of people in this category are overstating their abilities for far less objectionable reasons than beating their chests: they actually think they do climb that grade. This happens all the time. Look at the number of people who are extremely confident they can perform on 10a only get get on the casual route and realize they don't crush 10a at 14,000ft. Granted, the distinction between climbing 5.10 and owning 5.10 was mentioned already and can be avoided with more specific questioning (or, per reboot, watching them climb), but climbing is like many other things: you often have to know a decent amount in order to appreciate how much you don't know. Knowing that you'll likely get taken down a peg or two when climbing at a totally new crag, for example, is something that won't sink in until you're a decently well-traveled climber, and so forth.

Additionally, how easy is it to mis-remember or downplay how close you came to blowing your send of your most recent 5.whatever? My brain plays that pernicious trick on me constantly. Scraping out a desperate send too often slowly melts into "yeah, I killed that route" over the course of a few weeks only to have my memory jogged when I get back on the route the next time. I'm convinced it's the same part of the brain that distorts memories of miserable un-planned bivies involving shared sleeping bags to the point where I think, "I'd do that again"

Ryan Watts wrote:It totally depends on context. If we're talking about a specific route (e.g. "you want to do regular route on fairview?") then I usually just say "yes" or "no". If we're talking about what routes I'd be interested in *in general* so we can look for stuff to do, then I usually just throw out a few routes or a general idea (e.g. "let's look for some 5.9ish stuff in tuolumne" or "I'd be up for some 5.10-5.11 sport in the gorge"). If someone is just asking "yo brah what grade do you climb?!", then I take the grade of the hardest route I have ever shamelessly hung my way up on top rope, take the 5 off, put a V in front, and use that. Make sense?

/thread

I tend to say a number grade lower that way if I am feeling lazy I can be lazy without being called lazy..
I am lazy a lot.

Climb with him somewhere else first that's a bit more of a controlled environment. Have him lead, setup anchors/raps, etc. A long trad FA Alpine route is not my ideal place to find out if someone is full of bull. People lie. They lie about the dumbest things imaginable. Why they would lie about something so safety inherent is beyond me.....but hey, people are people. People ask me what I climb and my answer is simple.......long moderate alpine with good views. That's it. I'm not a superstar. I'm not Ueli Steck. I consistently "CLIMBED" 11D at one point but now am perfectly happy with 5.8 as I get to enjoy the scenery and relax....it's why I'm there! :)

Ive only led 2 pitches 5.8 so I say 5.7 trad. I say 5.9 sport though and have probably only led 3 different 5.9s...

Adam Burch wrote:I don't think it's a dumb question / topic at all, although I'm starting to change my mind. I tend to put climbers on a bit of a pedestal, I guess - to love such an activity would seem to resonate with higher functioning folks...or you'd think so. Thoughtfulness, security in ones self (and in a sweet offset nut placed so SWEET), etc are all traits you'd imagine you'd find more often in a climber than you would in an average bloke. What I'm finding is, the more I interact with my "peer group", the more I realize we're all as average/boring as the random human. Insecure. Ego issues. Dishonest. Etc. Moral of the story is probably to climb with friends, don't make friends with climbers.

don't forget broke, smelly, dirty, etc. LOL

Human beings are social animals: we *require* the validation of our peers. Anyone that says differently is either lying or a fundamentally broken sociopath. (Yes; that means huge numbers of MP users are liars, and the occasional sociopathic thrown in, too, but mostly we're liars).

Rightly or wrongly, we get validation from other climbers by the grade we climb.

Thus, asking someone point blank what grade they climb is equivalent to asking: tell me why you are a human being that deserves to be alive?

Unsurprisingly, people make sure the answer provided gives a reason that validates their existence. (Read: grade inflation).

Except for Locker: I've seen that guy solo 5.15 barefoot. Or was it 5.5? I dunno, one of those two... Also, he's a sociopath. And he can hold my rope any time!

Adam Burch wrote:Climbers, You are kicking around the idea of climbing with someone new. Route is a little committing. You're trying to get a sense of the other person; do you really want to tie in with this person? They tell you they lead 5.X What do you believe? In my experience, people tend to puff themselves up a bit, maybe a grade or two more than they're actually comfortable leading. Besides ego, why do people fib? Maybe that's the only reason?

Ha, ha…I read this and thought, "Is this because I asked if you wanted to do Rest and Be Thankful?" Then I realized it couldn't be me you were referring to - you already know I bump my grade!

That said, you know my stories of climbing alpine with people for a first go…the good, the bad, and the ugly. You should just bail on the new partners and climb with me…you'll probably get to take the cruxes I said I was going to lead!

everybody knows that with women you add 1 and with men you subtract 1

David Sahalie wrote:Whoah, easy there spraylord Locker, everyone knows that the Gunks and ELDO gradez are the be and end all of the sport. They named the shoes 5.10 for a reason... nothing is harder, not even 15f or g at those permadrawed outdoor gyms I saw once a professed 13 gym climber not able to do a 10 off width so... case closed

I seem to recall an offwidth 5.10 in Yosemite that Beth Rodden supposedly could not send (not even after a few attempts). Anyone know that one? I never confirmed, but numerous people told me about the legend. And no, it's not Generator Crack. I seem to recall it was at the base of El Cap, although I am not sure.

Oh, and fuck Generator Crack.

teece303 wrote: Rightly or wrongly, we get validation from other climbers by the grade we climb.

I guess I'm a little different. The first things I ask potential partners is how long they've been climbing and where they have climbed. I doubt it's a coincidence that the climbers about whom folks say, "I'd rope up with him/her any day" have been at this game a long time.

The best descriptor of what grade of a climber you are is to take the easiest climb you've fallen off of in the last six months, then subtract a number grade from it. So, it doesn't matter how many 12s you've sent, if you fell off of any 10a, you are merely a solid 5.9 minus climber.

There, end of discussion.

camhead wrote:The best descriptor of what grade of a climber you are is to take the easiest climb you've fallen off of in the last six months, then subtract a number grade from it. So, it doesn't matter how many 12s you've sent, if you fell off of any 10a, you are merely a solid 5.9 minus climber. There, end of discussion.

That is why I only attempt 5.13 and up. Haven't finished a route in ages, but the above formula labels me a solid 5.12 climber.

I onsight lead belay 5.12 R.

5.13 on a good day.

camhead wrote:The best descriptor of what grade of a climber you are is to take the easiest climb you've fallen off of in the last six months, then subtract a number grade from it. So, it doesn't matter how many 12s you've sent, if you fell off of any 10a, you are merely a solid 5.9 minus climber. There, end of discussion.

I slipped on a trail the other day.

No longer a solid 2nd class climber :(

MojoMonkey wrote: That is why I only attempt 5.13 and up. Haven't finished a route in ages, but the above formula labels me a solid 5.12 climber.

Ahahaha "best descriptor" guy owned!