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Another bolt question

Original Post
mike olsen · · Carson City · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 5

Since there is another 5 page battle about bolt chopping and retro bolting, I thought I'd survey the community about an issue that's somewhat related. How do people feel about retro bolting unsafe or damaged bolts. In my home climbing area, there are a few bolts that are damaged or were put in originally with antiquated(even for the day) or dangerous bolts(i.e. hardware store cheapos not intended for climbing). In my community, most of the FAers have moved on, or died, and are not available to give there 2 cents. Is it right to replace a bolt that is dangerous? In theory, some of the janky hardware store bolts were dangerous the day they were glued, does it violate the code to put a modern bolt in its place that's safe and will last? In a way this could be changing the character of the route, or maybe not. Any ideas?

MO

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
mike olsen wrote: Since there is another 5 page battle about bolt chopping and retro bolting, I thought I'd survey the community about an issue that's somewhat related. How do people feel about retro bolting unsafe or damaged bolts. In my home climbing area, there are a few bolts that are damaged or were put in originally with antiquated(even for the day) or dangerous bolts(i.e. hardware store cheapos not intended for climbing). In my community, most of the FAers have moved on, or died, and are not available to give there 2 cents. Is it right to replace a bolt that is dangerous? In theory, some of the janky hardware store bolts were dangerous the day they were glued, does it violate the code to put a modern bolt in its place that's safe and will last? In a way this could be changing the character of the route, or maybe not. Any ideas? MO
This does not mean what you think it means.

Virtually nobody opposes replacing old, bad, or dangerous fixed protection. Happens all the time. Retrobolting, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter.
mike olsen · · Carson City · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 5

Actually, it means exactly what I think it means. I'm not trying to fan an old flame, but like I said some of these bolts were bad from day one. In a way, to replace the bad bolt would be altering the "character" of the climb by making it safer. I hear this sentiment in some of the Bolt Chopping thread as unethical or evil.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

My understanding is that "retrobolting" is adding bolts to an existing climb or moving bolts. Replacing bad bolts in the same location is OK.

And that the former is bad and the latter is good. But I am no bolting ethics expert.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
mike olsen wrote:Actually, it means exactly what I think it means. I'm not trying to fan an old flame, but like I said some of these bolts were bad from day one. In a way, to replace the bad bolt would be altering the "character" of the climb by making it safer. I hear this sentiment in some of the Bolt Chopping thread as unethical or evil.
The word "retrobolting" as I know it and have heard it used for decades means to add a bolt to a route that did not have one installed during the FA. That is not the same as replacing a bolt already placed during the FA, whether that bolt was good or bad. Replacing a bolt placed during the FA is not retrobolting. It happens all the time. Crappy quarter inch bolts are replaced all the time. Rusty bolts are replaced all the time. Fixed pins are replaced with new pins or new bolts all the time. It is generally accepted (with some exceptions, of course) but it is not retrobolting as I understand the word.
Ryan Nevius · · Perchtoldsdorf, AT · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 1,837

Replace 'em.

mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120

Yep.

Wilson On The Drums · · Woodbury, MN · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 940

What about questionable pitons? Should a new piton be pounded in? Or should the piton be pulled to provide a maybe ok placement? Or should a bolt be placed to provide a safe clip for years to come? They [FA party] presumably didn't have bolts back then, or if they did they were homemade, so can we do a favor and replace a piton with a bolt. I use to climb in a place with a lot of heinous runouts and every time I clipped some shitty piton these thoughts crossed my mind.

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800
Wilson On The Drums wrote:What about questionable pitons? Should a new piton be pounded in? Or should the piton be pulled to provide a maybe ok placement? Or should a bolt be placed to provide a safe clip for years to come? They [FA party] presumably didn't have bolts back then, or if they did they were homemade, so can we do a favor and replace a piton with a bolt. I use to climb in a place with a lot of heinous runouts and every time I clipped some shitty piton these thoughts crossed my mind.
You may replace fixed pins with bolts. The logic is that there is no way for anyone other than the person who placed the piton to know whether or not it's still safe. So putting a safe bolt in doesn't alter the character of the climb.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Robert Cort wrote: You may replace fixed pins with bolts. The logic is that there is no way for anyone other than the person who placed the piton to know whether or not it's still safe. So putting a safe bolt in doesn't alter the character of the climb.
Try telling this to the Gunkies.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

Mt Project is the new RC.n00b.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Wilson On The Drums wrote:What about questionable pitons? Should a new piton be pounded in? Or should the piton be pulled to provide a maybe ok placement? Or should a bolt be placed to provide a safe clip for years to come? They [FA party] presumably didn't have bolts back then, or if they did they were homemade, so can we do a favor and replace a piton with a bolt. I use to climb in a place with a lot of heinous runouts and every time I clipped some shitty piton these thoughts crossed my mind.
It depends on the community. My preference would be to replace the pin with a bolt, unless we are talking about an aid line. The problem with replacing the pin with another pin is that the chromoly steel is just going to deteriorate leaving you with the same problem (depending on the climate). I kind of view this situation like using carbon steel bolts in place of stainless steel bolts to replace old carbon steel bolts. You end up just delaying the problem instead of solving it. Likewise, and most importantly, a stainless steel bolt is much safer than a fixed pin.
Daniel Winder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 101
Robert Cort wrote: You may replace fixed pins with bolts.
Nope

csproul wrote: It is generally accepted (with some exceptions, of course) but it is not retrobolting as I understand the word.
This. Here's an exception:
mountainproject.com/v/bolt-…

Wilson On The Drums wrote:They [FA party] presumably didn't have bolts back then, or if they did they were homemade,
LOL, awesome

OP, mank hardware gets updated but you still get to reminisce/spray about how you did it back in the day on rusty quarter inchers
Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,060

Just to clarify:

rebolt = replace bolts one-for-one (preferably in the same hole)

retrobolt = add protection bolts to reduce runouts

There are gray areas (such as replacing pitons with bolts) that may or may not be considered retrobolting depending largely on the area, the quality of the original piton (bomber or not so great), whether or not you can get bomber clean pro, etc. And replacing original anchors that used bomber pitons with bolts can be accepted practice (eg El Capitan) or not acceptable depending on area.

Scott O · · Anchorage · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 70
Locker wrote:Mt Project is the new RC.n00b.
The neighborhood has certainly gone downhill.
marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

Can you say 'Titanic'? Or maybe 'Hindenburg' since climbers hate falling.

Brad M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 0
Scott O wrote: The neighborhood has certainly gone downhill.
I like to think it's the trolls are getting better.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
mike olsen wrote: Since there is another 5 page battle about bolt chopping and retro bolting, I thought I'd survey the community about an issue that's somewhat related. How do people feel about retro bolting unsafe or damaged bolts. In my home climbing area, there are a few bolts that are damaged or were put in originally with antiquated(even for the day) or dangerous bolts(i.e. hardware store cheapos not intended for climbing). In my community, most of the FAers have moved on, or died, and are not available to give there 2 cents. Is it right to replace a bolt that is dangerous? In theory, some of the janky hardware store bolts were dangerous the day they were glued, does it violate the code to put a modern bolt in its place that's safe and will last? In a way this could be changing the character of the route, or maybe not. Any ideas? MO
Generally speaking, replacing existing poor-quality bolts with new good-quality bolts is acceptable (with possible area-specific exceptions). In fact, in most places, this is viewed as good citizenship. When a particular term is used for this, it is often "rebolting".

In contrast, the usual usage of the term "retro-bolting" does not describe this activity. It is used for adding of bolts to a climb that was not originally bolted. And, it generally causes great furor, much debate, and even bolt wars. (Though, again, it is more accepted at some areas, while violently rejected at other areas.)

The greyest area is replacing old, non-bolt fixed protection with bolts. (e.g. replacing old fixed pins or pitons with newer bolts as the pins/pitons get aged and worn.)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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