Over guiding

James Piotrowski.... nice one on the cycle.

I know that Guided rafters get "special treatment" on the Kern. The rest need to be in a "lottry" to get a crack at it.... very bogus IMHO.

Guide Blocked.... a new term for me.

maybe time to get up extra early and do "independent block"

mthomas wrote: Only one guide service with permits there, at least for a little while longer. Always interesting to me when "independents" whine about crowded crags with guided groups. There is some irony in said independents not having what it takes to climb more aesthetic lines at higher altitudes and at higher grades. How often do you see a guided group on anything over 5.9? Perhaps these independents should hire a guide.

Not sure if this is a shot at me or not… I will never pay for a guide, that's the adventure in climbing. This was literally the first time I ever touched granite, because of that I'm not allowed to learn on my own?

NickinCO wrote: Not sure if this is a shot at me or not… I will never pay for a guide, that's the adventure in climbing. This was literally the first time I ever touched granite, because of that I'm not allowed to learn on my own?

Who the hell cares, there are a lot of easier routes that our absolute classics that any climber should do regardless of the grade. Pear Buttress is one of those. Whether or not it was directed specifically towards you and the Pear Buttress, his initial point is ridiculous. Disparaging anyone for climbing a classic because it's a trade route, or too easy is going into "Mayor of douche vile" territory.

I hate myself for entering this discussion.

I remember the moment when I knew that could not continue down the path toward guiding.

For the record, I have never had a bad experience with a guide or a guided group, unless I examine my own previous behavior. I once flirted with the idea of being a guide, I lead a couple of ice climbing trips to the local crag under the observation of my AMGA certified supervisor. We did everything that you would assume that we would, got there early (nothing wrong with that) and basically carpeted all the choice routes with top ropes. We offered the ropes to others if they wanted, it made us feel better, but if a client was inclined then it was time for them to come down. The moment came when I was belaying a ten year old kid on his birthday up maybe a WI3/4, tired I stood there basically pulling this kid up the climb as he tore the motherfucker down, just wailing on the thing. I didn't recognize the man who walked up beside me because of all the hoods/helmets associated with winter climbing. He started talking to my Lead Guide, an entrenched curmudgeon who suddenly perked up. I was introduced as "one of my new guides" and the man then looked at me with a stern gaze and gave the smallest of nods. After he walked away my supervisor said, "Do you know who that was". I replied that I didn't. He told me, and I was shocked/stunned/fan-boy swooning. (I know it makes for a boring and anti-climactic story but I am not going to name drop, I am sorry if you are justifiably irked.)

I thought about how one of my heroes had just seen me, dragging someone up a climb they should not have been on, in a place they shouldn't have been. I stopped guiding and worked at a gear shop for considerably less pay until I switched jobs.

I decided that for me, going to the mountains is a process of self-discovery and painful growth - you have to earn your experience, you have to earn and learn your skill. Buying it just makes you a poser. But hey, we're all posers anyway...

^^^*Amen

J.Colin.Olson wrote: I decided that for me, going to the mountains is a process of self-discovery and painful growth - you have to earn your experience, you have to earn and learn your skill. Buying it just makes you a poser. But hey, were all posers anyway...

Preach on brotha

Like anything, there's two sides to the coin. Sure you dragged a kid up a waterfall who couldn't climb it by himself. Does that mean he shouldn't have been there? I don't necessarily think so. While it sounds like he was far from a natural climber, he wanted to try it, so his parents hired you and your boss to expose him to the sport. What's wrong with that? You got embarrassed because your Steve House/Alex Lowe/Barry Blanchard idol saw you working. (What do those three names have in common? They're all guides who have probably done the same type of work at some point in their careers)

Sorry, but the idea that paying money for instruction makes you a poser is absolute bullshit. If you'd said that paying money to get rope gunned up a route and then talking about how gnar you are is posing, I would've agreed, but your statement is plain and simply wrong. As owners of public lands, we're all entitled to use them and, for some people, that means hiring a guide to facilitate that use. Saying that a client's experience is invalid is just as douchy as saying that guides should get to 'dibs' a route.

I just read all three pages of this thread, and I feel there are some valid points on both sides.
-Yes, there are guiding services which do monopolize certain areas and have poor sharing habits with others. This should not be seen as a reflection of guiding as an institution but on the individuals and perhaps the service itself.
-No, there is no need for capable climbers out on there own to be "guide-blocked". If the guide is causing a traffic jam on an ascent/descent, that guide should know how to allow a party to pass, if they are not going to then in turn impede their own progress…kind of like how everyone in the real world operates anyway.
-Public lands are just that- for the public! Let John or Jane Q. Public decide how they want to engage with the lands. If they want to hire a guide, empower them to do so, don't shame them into thinking that it is somehow wrong or diminishing to their experience. Here in the Inyo, the USFS has determined that the main trail on Whitney is "too easy" to require a guide, we have in essence become guide-blocked! Let people make their own choices.
-What is the difference between a mountain guide and a ________? Probably more punchlines than guides. There are many guides out there who do so to prove something, to make a name for themselves or to be in the spotlight when out with their clients on the climb or in the mountains. The focus is on them and their accomplishments rather than giving that energy towards their guest. These folks do give the profession a bad name, do lessen the efforts of those who have completed or are working towards full certification and do diminish the great lengths organizations like the AMGA have done to professionalize the industry.

I am a working guide, I am in the process of taking the necessary courses and exams for full certification and while many have had bad guide experiences, for my own part when encountering other users, think "How can I make this person's brief encounter with me and my guest the most positive it can be?"

I haven't seen another party in the mountains for almost three years except the regular route on Huayna or Illimani and the base camp at Condoriri. And the annual bouldering fest but that's just for fun:

So glad I don't live in Colorado.

SQUAMISH

Its that simple

;)

NickinCO wrote:First time I ever touched granite or climbed crack was on Pear Buttress. Sure, it took me about 40 minutes to lead the first pitch after figuring out what worked and what didn't.

Sure the guide or any other climber has the option of getting on another route, but did it ever occur to you that since you had never climbed granite or cracks that maybe a better approach would have been to get on some single pitch routes or something more obscure to ease into the new style of climbing? I would consider getting on a popular multipitch route that is over your head and then going extremely slow to be inconsiderate of others. The initial intent of this thread was that guides are rude and inconsiderate of others, but based on my own experience there are douche bags in both groups. We as climbers don't own the rock and should make an effort to be respectful of others' attempts to enjoy it.

will archer wrote: Sure the guide or any other climber has the option of getting on another route, but did it ever occur to you that since you had never climbed granite or cracks that maybe a better approach would have been to get on some single pitch routes or something more obscure to ease into the new style of climbing? I would consider getting on a popular multipitch route that is over your head and then going extremely slow to be inconsiderate of others. The initial intent of this thread was that guides are rude and inconsiderate of others, but based on my own experience there are douche bags in both groups. We as climbers don't own the rock and should make an effort to be respectful of others' attempts to enjoy it.

It's one of the most famous 5.8's at Lumpy... A newer leader is going to be on it regardless. It took us less than an hour to clean and lead the pitch, and subsequent pitches went much faster... For someone who only leads 5.8 at the time is that really that slow? When you go on vacation somewhere (I didn't live here then) do you skip the famous routes and only climb obscurities at your limit because you don't want to get in someones way? The bottom line is if you really wanted to do ONE route, you'll make sure you get there before anyone else. This is common place on some of the longer moderates in Red Rock also. Otherwise you wait...

Ryan-G wrote: Now, on to my real rant: NOLS and Outward Bound….lots of bad experiences with those guys. The latest instance was at Jtree over a holiday weekend this last February. I was actually going to write NOLS a complaint but why not blast them here: yes!:) basically went to climb Lost Horse Wall, and NOLS had monopolized three good moderates

This kind of disrespectful behavior is unacceptable. You need to stand up and be firm but polite. This is simple for me. If there is a rope hanging from a route and nobody is around, yank it and climb it. If somebody is around but nobody is on the route politely ask are you guys climbing this right now. If they are not climbing it right now I would politely let them know that I'm going to climb it right now. But we are happy to put your rope back up when we clean it.

Last year Chicks on Crack left a rope up overnight in Moab with a note trying to reserve the route. . We arrived to climb that route. Nobody was there. We climbed a nearby route instead and watched several parties show up, read the note and move on. After about two hours we decided we had been more than patient, yanked the rope and climbed it. One girl showed up around noon, by herself. She was baffled that the rope was not still up. Hmmm.

James Piotrowski wrote: Because they are using a public resource...

So guides shouldn't be given priority because it's a public resource, to be shared by the public. Keep in mind they pay money to use it in most places. Should recreational climbers be given priority? Why? Is first come-first served the way to go? Why should recreational parties be entitled to access public land but guides barred from the same use simply because they make money? What about other commercial operations such as mining, grazing, forestry, and other activities that cause tremendously more impact based on the extraction of resources unlike guiding which is based on the extraction of experiences?

By the way most permits I've signed for have explicit instructions on party size, not monopolizing an area, and the fact that permitees do not have ownership or priority access.

If someone is claiming ownership of a route or monopolizing terrain it's very likely they're not following the instructions of their permit. Call the company and complain. If it happens again call the land manager and complain. If they receive enough valid complaints they may get their permit revoked.

Greg D wrote: This kind of disrespectful behavior is unacceptable. You need to stand up and be firm but polite. This is simple for me. If there is a rope hanging from a route and nobody is around, yank it and climb it. If somebody is around but nobody is on the route politely ask are you guys climbing this right now. If they are not climbing it right now I would politely let them know that I'm going to climb it right now. But we are happy to put your rope back up when we clean it. Last year Chicks on Crack left a rope up overnight in Moab with a note trying to reserve the route. . We arrived to climb that route. Nobody was there. We climbed a nearby route instead and watched several parties show up, read the note and move on. After about two hours we decided we had been more than patient, yanked the rope and climbed it. One girl showed up around noon, by herself. She was baffled that the rope was not still up. Hmmm.

+1 This is common place at devils lake with top ropers also. To the point where you don't ask, you just tell them you're gonna pull the rope. I've found (at least there) if you ask people will bicker and try to say "we were just getting on it". If you tell them you're pulling it (while you're racked up ready to go, and are starting to pull it) people usually will be a little surprised and just say "ok". If there's no one around I'm just going to pull it also, it's not my responsibility to find the owner.

When arriving at a parking lot with one or more vans(any outdoor school of any sort) I've learned to just go somewhere else. Recent memories are driving through the Black Hills and wanting to do some classics for the day in the Tenpins area and finding 20+ people all over everything from one school. Hiked out to the Astrodome in Jtree only to get blocked by a big class from some school(we didnt see the vans). Went to go hit the Hemingway buttress at Jtree for the first time to find a bunch of vans and 20+ people all over everything. Most recently I went to a small CT crag on a Sunday I had never been to only to find a van and a class all over all the classics. Even climbing near these groups can be annoying as hell as they tend to be loud and obnoxious.

NOLS are the most pretentious of the bunch in my experience. East coast 1%ers send their bratty offspring to Lander daycare so they can go on vacation. Outfitted in gaters and carrying out their poo .

NickinCO wrote: It's one of the most famous 5.8's at Lumpy... A newer leader is going to be on it regardless. It took us less than an hour to clean and lead the pitch, and subsequent pitches went much faster... For someone who only leads 5.8 at the time is that really that slow? When you go on vacation somewhere (I didn't live here then) do you skip the famous routes and only climb obscurities at your limit because you don't want to get in someones way? The bottom line is if you really wanted to do ONE route, you'll make sure you get there before anyone else. This is common place on some of the longer moderates in Red Rock also. Otherwise you wait...

You should seriously stop responding to these Nick. You've been reasonable with your arguments, and some folks keep sticking on the fact that you were, at one point in time *gasp* a newb on granite cracks and had the audacity to climb the best moderate at Lumpy while on vacation. OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: You should seriously stop responding to these Nick. You've been reasonable with your arguments, and some folks keep sticking on the fact that you were, at one point in time *gasp* a newb on granite cracks and had the audacity to climb the best moderate at Lumpy while on vacation. OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

;) You are right