Over guiding

mthomas wrote: Only one guide service with permits there, at least for a little while longer. Always interesting to me when "independents" whine about crowded crags with guided groups. There is some irony in said independents not having what it takes to climb more aesthetic lines at higher altitudes and at higher grades. How often do you see a guided group on anything over 5.9? Perhaps these independents should hire a guide.

I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but now we have to climb alpine 11c to enjoy climbing around people with common decency? You must be a guide.

mthomas wrote: There is some irony in said independents not having what it takes to climb more aesthetic lines at higher altitudes and at higher grades. How often do you see a guided group on anything over 5.9? Perhaps these independents should hire a guide.

I'm pretty sure Jamie is talking about ice climbs. In SW Colorado, there are a lot of "independents" who climb as hard if not harder than guides or guided groups. In such scenario, I can see that some people find it frustrating when guided parties who have no business to be there, hack the hell out of a line that doesn't form regularly. I know, the "independents" can go and do an obscure line, but so can the guided parties - their clients wouldn't know the difference anyway.

mthomas wrote: Enjoyment is all about perspective. While I might much rather prefer a long, quiet day up high with a good friend I think being surprised about the lack of common decency at a crowded crag is the equivalent of being caught off guard by mcd's making you fat (i know from experience). We're all blessed to get outside and enjoy decent rock/ice. Someone else's douch-i-ness shouldn't ruin a beautiful day outside. Who actually DESERVES to lay claim to a route? None of us. But it is very American. In Europe guiding is a respected profession, on par with legal and medical professionals. Guides, and their parties, get priority no questions asked. We're a long way from that mentality here in the states, but progress is being made. As for the <100 Americans who have actually acquired IFMGA certification, the rest of us should appreciate women and men so dedicated to a craft we call hobby. I've ignored these forums for 5 years for good reason, and will now return back to my ignorance.

Why should guides and their clients "get priority, no questions asked"? The guide is using public land to make a buck, and the client is paying for an experience that he lacks the skills to have on his own. There's nothing wrong with either of those things, but do they entitle the guide and his/her client to special treatment? I don't think so. The client may have paid lots of money for his day of climbing, but if the climb is happening on public land (which it usually is), the unguided climber has as much right to enjoy his day out as the guide and his client.

One thing I didn't see mentioned that is slightly off-topic but still worth addressing, I think, is; that I would rather see a party of newbies with a guide then the exact same party just looking up a few videos on youtube and then jumping on the rock. I think ultimately if the guides are teaching good safety and stewardship habits to newbies, then ultimately we are better off having more guides out there then not.
I believe that for better or worse we are already, or very soon will be, seeing the sport exploding with newcomers. If we are gonna have the new people, lets have them be safe.

BTW, I basically did the youtube thing, and I am super lucky I didn't maim myself or another, if I had hired a guide for even 1 day, I would have saved myself a month worth of learning things the hard way; and not had to ask the question "what i z-clipped?" when I climber shouted up a warning a me :)

mthomas wrote: Guides, and their parties, get priority no questions asked. We're a long way from that mentality here in the states, but progress is being made.

This isn't Europe son... and frankly I wouldn't want to be anyhwere near a crag with you and your entitled attitude. Your interests in making money do not trump anyone else interests and that you think that's justified is messed up. Keep on ignoring though... maybe that'll get you somewhere.

mthomas wrote: Enjoyment is all about perspective. While I might much rather prefer a long, quiet day up high with a good friend I think being surprised about the lack of common decency at a crowded crag is the equivalent of being caught off guard by mcd's making you fat (i know from experience). We're all blessed to get outside and enjoy decent rock/ice. Someone else's douch-i-ness shouldn't ruin a beautiful day outside. Who actually DESERVES to lay claim to a route? None of us. But it is very American. In Europe guiding is a respected profession, on par with legal and medical professionals. Guides, and their parties, get priority no questions asked. We're a long way from that mentality here in the states, but progress is being made. As for the <100 Americans who have actually acquired IFMGA certification, the rest of us should appreciate women and men so dedicated to a craft we call hobby. I've ignored these forums for 5 years for good reason, and will now return back to my ignorance.

so much wrong with this post, and i have a hard time believing what you said about guides in europe.

mthomas wrote: In Europe guiding is a respected profession, on par with legal and medical professionals. Guides, and their parties, get priority no questions asked. We're a long way from that mentality here in the states, but progress is being made. As for the <100 Americans who have actually acquired IFMGA certification, the rest of us should appreciate women and men so dedicated to a craft we call hobby.

That is new to me ;)

David Barbour wrote: so much wrong with this post, and i have a hard time believing what you said about guides in europe.

I'm pretty sure he's right. I just took an SPI course with an IFMGA guide and I asked him about guiding culture in Europe. He said the exact same thing. Guides are highly respected and almost get 'claim' to the routes. He said there is a huge cultural difference between guiding in America and Europe. Guides in Europe can often tell what 'independents' to do.

Stop climbing the easiest route in the area!

kboofis wrote: I'm pretty sure he's right. I just took an SPI course with an IFMGA guide and I asked him about guiding culture in Europe. He said the exact same thing. Guides are highly respected and almost get 'claim' to the routes. He said there is a huge cultural difference between guiding in America and Europe. Guides in Europe can often tell what 'independents' to do.

i'd like to hear it from an "independent"

This whole discussion is pretty old news if you've been involved in any other outdoor sport over the last 20-40 years. You guys sound just like flyfishers in 1995. The cycle runs something like this:

1. The sport goes mainstream and everyone is excited to have "new blood" in the sport;
2. Some people start making money off the newbs, which seems cool beause people get to mkae money doing something they love;
3. More and more people start making money off the newbs, which isn't so cool any more because the sport relies on a limited resource, and while the limits were way out of reach before, they are starting to loom large all the sudden;
4. Some of those people making money are primarily interested solely in making money; others care about the sport and the resource, but there are simple economics involved (like meeting payroll, paying doctor's bills and mortgages) that cause them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do;
5. The "bros" show up,every sport has its bros, they are about 1/10th as cool as they think they are, and the oldtimers know it. But the bros are bound and determined to be the coolest kids in teh game, and they do that by guiding and claiming to be dirtbags, and being "extreme," until they grow up a little and take a regular job, get married, have kids, and seek refuge in a bottle;
6. Some people start complaining about the folks making money; the folks making money take offense; the folks making money also desperately want to earn a living, so they start feeling entitled, which only further angers the folks complaining about them;
7. Disputes happen, natural resource managers get involved, crazy ideas are floated, and "private reserves" are created so the better off can stay away from teh whole fight.
8. Everything calms down, reaches some sort of equilibrium point that is a whole lot less enjoyable than the prior equilibrium point, but involves a whole lot more people. In other words, your favorite crag is still there, it's just crowded all the time, and you never feel like you know a secret the rest of the world has somehow missed out on any more, and it's never the same again. Which doesn't means it's worse, or bad, just different, and when something changes something is definitely lost even as somethign else is gained.

The short lesson, enjoy the places you love now, while they are still the places you love. Figure out what you love about the sport, and find ways to keep finding that. Work your butts off to build a true "climbing community." Because right now that's a phrase you all like to throw around, but it doesn't really exist, IMO.

Morgan Patterson wrote: This isn't Europe son... and frankly I wouldn't want to be anyhwere near a crag with you and your entitled attitude. Your interests in making money do not trump anyone else interests and that you think that's justified is messed up. Keep on ignoring though... maybe that'll get you somewhere.

Love it. The guy is right about guiding being a more resprcted profession in Europe, but on the same par as legal and medical professionals? Whatever he's got must be medical grade.

Many of us want to find solitude in the woods, broken only by the company of our friends... its' that age-old Frontier-driven wanderlust that drove the Manifest Destiny. But now it's harder and harder to find a proper Frontier where you can "fully enjoy the freedom of the hills", but the problem isn't that there are too many guides.

The problem is that there are too many people.

Solution? Convince as many people as possible that vaccines are bad for them. Or initiate discussions about the limits of personal freedom imposed on you by others who reproduce like rabbits.

Until then, stand in line.

kboofis wrote: I'm pretty sure he's right. I just took an SPI course with an IFMGA guide and I asked him about guiding culture in Europe. He said the exact same thing. Guides are highly respected and almost get 'claim' to the routes. He said there is a huge cultural difference between guiding in America and Europe. Guides in Europe can often tell what 'independents' to do.

In Europe guides (and their clients) can cut queues for the friques, get priority service at the huts and so on. It just is accepted. Which if you think about it is no different then a ski school consisting of snot nosed little brats (I have 4) cutting the lift lines at ski areas that are on public land. No difference.

Jamie Jones wrote: The entitlement that is displayed by guides has become sad and frankly made the AMGA look bad.

Unfortunately I have to agree. Most 'guides' are very unpleasant to be around in the mountains due to this sense of entitlement.

Honestly it's pretty bad.

Agreed, there are a lot of guides in CO. To be fair though, guides are people and unfortunately some people are dicks. That doesn't mean all guides are dicks. Also all people are fallible, once again, guides being people make mistakes.

Part of guiding is role modeling, role modeling acting like a jerk and entitled prick doesn't generally leave a good impression on clients or independent parties watching. There are crappy guides just like there are crappy workers in every business. So there is a lot of generalizing going on here. I'm usually super pleasant, helpful, and courteous around people in the mountains.

Keep in mind that not all guides are AMGA certified. I've never been on a single AMGA course, exam, or observation(out of 5 courses, one exam, and one observation) where nearly the entire first day was not spent discussing professionalism, LNT, and etiquette with other parties.

And to correct some misinformation land managers highly curtail commercial guided use to anyone who didn't get their permit 50 some odd years ago (or isn't a military or non-profit group). I've put out messages to about 10 different land managers in Colorado to prove it. A lot of them say that because of the high volume of recreational users they can't allow any more permits for commercial use. Definitely won't find that in Europe.

To play Devil's advocate though why shouldn't guides get priority and access? Are they not a far greater engine in the outdoor recreation sector of the economy than recreationalists?

Not everything should revolve around money and how something affects the economy. How about happiness quotient? If somebody comes along and is able to make me more happy than I would be otherwise, they are welcome to go ahead first.

jmeizis wrote: To play Devil's advocate though why shouldn't guides get priority and access? Are they not a far greater engine in the outdoor recreation sector of the economy than recreationalists?

Because they are using a public resource. This really isn't that hard. Public lands are not managed solely to maximize profits. By your reasoning, people who stay in a hotel should get priority over those who use campgrounds.

jmeizis wrote: To play Devil's advocate though why shouldn't guides get priority and access? Are they not a far greater engine in the outdoor recreation sector of the economy than recreationalists?

The impact of guides on the economy is irrelevant. Certain public lands have been set aside for recreation and enjoyment. If an individual wants to hire a guide or instructor to help him enjoy those lands that's fine, but hiring said guide or instructor does not entitle the individual or his guide/instructor to any special priority in accessing public lands.

Re: guides and clients getting priority on telepheriques and in huts in Europe: If the operator of the telepherique or hut feels that a guide service is bringing in enough business to warrant special treatment, that's the operator's call. That doesn't justify a guide blocking other people's access to public lands, though.

Re: snot nosed brats in ski school cutting lift lines (I taught skiing for a long time, and taught a lot of kids): ski resorts in the US just about always lease the land from the US Forest Service, and the ski lift and ski school are usually operated by the same company (here in the US, anyway). So the ski resort is deciding which group of customers to favor in order to maximize their profits.

Eric Engberg wrote: In Europe guides (and their clients) can cut queues for the friques, get priority service at the huts and so on. It just is accepted. Which if you think about it is no different then a ski school consisting of snot nosed little brats (I have 4) cutting the lift lines at ski areas that are on public land. No difference.

Ski areas are leased from the government and then developed at substantial expense by private companies. Allowing their own employees preferential access to facilities the resorts have built is not exactly the same as commercial enterprises monopolizing undeveloped public land for their own financial benefit.