Over guiding

I would like to discuss a problem that is becoming an issue in the mountains, specifically in my home state of Colorado, that is we have seen a large increase in guides in our area. And I know it is taking place all over Colorado. There is a new term I learned this winter, being 'guide blocked'. This is because in SW Colorado there has been an exponential increase in guides, and many 'independents', as non-guided humans are known in the guide world, are getting pissed off. The entitlement that is displayed by guides has become sad and frankly made the AMGA look bad.

Care to define terms? I can think of at least three different definitions of being "guide blocked".

I think it's great that the guide business is burgeoning. If there are "too many," they'll go out of business. Or the land manager won't issue guiding permits.

But if people want to experience climbing through using a guide, that's great. Not sure I understand the problem.

Is this where you use the auto-block with your ATC in guide mode? I actually really like that.

Buff Johnson wrote:Is it when you get to a climb later than the guide, and the guide starts climbing because they got there first?

I've noticed this as a big problem also in the areas around the front range. I have done some guiding and group instruction over the years and was taught by some very capable people. I was instructed to respectfully interact with recreational climbers and practice LNT principles. For some reason that does not appear to the be the case with the vast majority of guides and guided groups. Here are some of the issues I see:

- Limit group size: I have literally rolled up to a parking area where there was a group of no less than 50 people. All part of the same group. Not cool. Following this alone will address most of the issues. Limiting group size will also cut down on the time that you are on eat route. Of course everyone in your group wants to try the route. If that is 30 people you will be on the route all day long. If you are a group of 5, you may only be on the route an hour.
- Taking over routes: It sucks to walk up to the crag and have every moderate route taken by 8am in the morning. If there were actually people climbing on these routes it would be a different story, but too often you get the line, "uh, hey, we've got a group of (x number) kids showing up at 10am. My favorite follow up to that is, "hey, you are welcome to use our ropes if you one is on them." Pre-setting routes is lame. Guides and instructional groups should play by the same rules as everyone else. If you want the routes, get up early and get them with your group. Don't just set the whole crag at 8am and wait until they show up at 10am.
- If you are guiding or instructing, you should have the skill set to set up any route at the crag, not just the ones with easily accessible bolt anchors.
- Please do not set rappels directly over climbing routes. You can rappel from anywhere. Don't take a climbing route to do it.
- Consolidate your belongings. Nothing worse than walking up to a yard sale at the base.

Nothing new here, just some basic common courtesy. I know the feeling you have when you are guiding and you walk up to a crowded area. We only have 4 hours, what will I be able to get my clients on? We all know what areas are going to be crowded at what times. Plan your guiding day around this just like anyone else. If you need that 5.6 warm up first thing. Make sure you get up early and get it first thing (with your clients present).

My two cents...

This does not sound like a problem, More so like your complaining about the fact that the climb you wanted to do was occupied by a guide and client..I counted 19ppl while I rapped on a 3 pitch tower called Ancient Art the other day. Oh and I was guiding it.I was the only guide there. Come over to Moab if you would really like to see an example of over guiding and over use.

Euros have been dealing with it for > 150 years. I'm sure you'll eventually manage to too.

I don't know what the OP might have been complaining of, but I do think that guides stringing routes they are not presently using is pretty low-class. I arrived at a crag once with five pairs of anchors. Guide had just set a rope on one (call it route #1). I started hiking up with the intention to set a rope on a different set of anchors, guide practically ran to that set of anchors and set a rope there (call it Route #2).

Over the next three hours the guide hauled a bunch of kids up Route #2. WHen somebody asked guide if they could use his rope on Route #1 he declined claiming that "I am not allowed to let you do that for insurance reasons." Four other groups politely shared ropes on Routes 3, 4, 5, all of which were harder climbs that some of the group members weren't really capable of doing clean. Guide then ascends and pulls both of his ropes, having NEVER put any of his sports on Route #1. Basically, the fool blocked a route for three hours on a busy day for no reason whatsoever.

If I had known what outfit he worked for I would have complained to the owner, but who knows if that would have helped.

Land managers don't limit permits to guides unless other users ask them to do so. So simply saying "the land manager won't issue permits" is not an answer.

For what it's worth, I've been out climbing in Colorado twice in the past 2 years. On both trips we encountered a guided party at some point. All the guides we encountered were friendly and courteous, and no more obtrusive than any other "independent" party you'd encounter at the crag.

Hopefully what folks are experiencing are isolated incidents, and can be resolved amicably through the local climbing and guiding communities.

Guides are just a small step up from sport rappelers.

Neither own the rock, just take your shirt off, climb around the hoard, and make their soccer mom clientel swoon.

^lol

JLP wrote:If it bothers you a route is occupied that is so easy it could probably be done by someone who has never climbed before in their life - while wearing tennis shoes - it might be a sign you need to step up your game a bit.

I've generally found that the good guide services like San Juan Mountain Guides and the Colorado Mountain School are very respectful of "independents" as you put it. On a couple of occasions at Hidden Falls I've had CMS guides pull their ropes and have their clients take a lunch break so I can lead the main falls. The bigger issue is the fly by night Groupon Guide services. When the CCC ice was in this year, I went out to solo all the ice in the canyon, and from the Beer Garden to Mickey's Big Mouth. every bit of ice was swarmed by total newbs getting instruction from "guides" that aren't all that much more experienced than their clients doing foolish, unsafe work.

As in all things there are guides and guide services that play well with others and there are those who do not. I am a guide, guide service owner and teach the AMGA SPI. I can tell you that I/we make and teach getting along with others at the crag a TOP priority. We do so because it's the right thing to do and to avoid pissing off folks like Jamie.
I too have also witnesses bad guiding practices. 3 ropes strung for a family of 4 at one of the most popular crags in BCC. Guide didn't offer to move them or let anyone climb on them all day. Also witnessed same service TR the middle pitch of a 5 pitch ice route( and the only route IN for miles) for a good long while forcing others to turn away.
Pissed me off. Was it poor guiding, possibly brought about by poor guide training, company attitude and policy? Yes. Is it indicative of the entire guiding industry? No.

Perhaps, rather than making broad sweeping statements about an entire profession or the AMGA, comments or complaints should be directed at the guide or guide service.

Reputations for quality of guiding and instruction as well as etiquette at the crag are formed through word of mouth. Speak to the offenders, not the entire profession. Your thoughts might force some change with the offending guides and possibly fall on more receptive ears in the "independent" community.

It's easy to look at guided groups and shake your head. Afterall you have spent much time and money honing your craft to be able to take you where you want to go, while some novices have merely paid others to take them there. However, these issues are most often experienced at the most popular and accessible destinations and generally starting, as mentioned, around 8 (meet the guide at 7, gear up and then approach). Why not get off the beaten path and use those skills you have acquired over the years or wake up a little early and get on those warm up routes before the commercial rush. I'm sure from a guide's perspective many 'independents' are more self righteous and feel entitled than they.

Guide services versus independent enthusiasts of any sport or activity can be a tricky issue, but with a little understanding on both sides it can work out quite well. If there is a serious problem with a guide or guide service, get the name of the company and contact the owner/operator or the land manager, they might be completely oblivious to how their actions are affecting others.

What if you did get to the route first and are halfway up the first pitch and a guide starts heckling you because you're taking too long and his client paid to climb the pear buttress route?

True story... First time I ever touched granite or climbed crack was on Pear Buttress. Sure, it took me about 40 minutes to lead the first pitch after figuring out what worked and what didn't. Some red headed dude with his "client" got pissed because it was taking to long. I proceeded to watch him lead up loose ends, with his client unable to clean his first piece of gear. Then he got more pissed, rapped down cleaned the pitch and they left. LOL...

^^^^^^
Then that guy/guide was a dick. Might be in his personal climbing as well. Shouldn't have heckled you, should have better prepared his client. Good that he had an epic and you were left to climb.

I tried to climb at the North End of Cathedral once, where an guided group had the place on lockdown. Yard sale gear, empty TRs hanging, the whole nine yards. I asked a lady lounging near the rock if she was about to climb the route "They died laughing" a splitter 5.9 finger- and handcrack with an empty TR on it. "Well," she said, "I think I'm going to get on it again in a few minutes to try and work that crux some more."

Ok fine, I thought, no big deal, and moved on to the next hand/finger 5.9 splitter, "Bird's Nest." Also an empty TR. Guide was busy spraying down his client on jamming techniques, so again I asked nearby people for permission to pull the rope and lead the route they were not using. No one was psyched to climb it, so I flaked my rope and racked up. Just as I'd finished, Mr. Hot-Shit-IFMGA himself walks up: "Hey man, my client is about to get on that one."
Me: "I asked and no one said they wanted to do it. My rope is flaked and I just racked up. Mind if I pull it and climb?"
Douchey Guide: "No way, she'll fly right up it. She'll be up before you even have your shoes laced up"

Ok, whatever man. I went back to the first route: "Excuse me ma'am, are you ready to climb this yet?" She wasn't. "Ok, mind if I pull your rope? We'll put it back when we're done." The guide said fine, and offered to let us use his anchor. So we climbed, and then left to an area that wasn't clusterfucked. I think he felt bad because after reflaking and moving over, I still lowered off before his client had topped out.

Morals of the story:
1. some guides will teach climbing moves and techniques, but not etiquette (leader gets the right of way). These are the douches.

2. Even douches will listen to reason sometimes. Get in there and politely request your right to climb. Don't be all passive aggressive and then bitch about it online. I have TR'd on strangers' ropes, lead on their draws, swapped out peoples' gear for them and others for me, etc. It just means you might have to *gasp* TALK to some people at the crag. Guided groups can be flexible too.

3. You know where the clusterfuck is gonna be. don't go there.

parasites.

While never really having had any issues with professional guides whether independent or working for a service I've had a few issues over the years with AMC "guided" groups. Just last year I came across a group who had ropes unused all over the place. When I asked if I could pull an unused rope to lead a route the "guide" said "this is our rock today, no." Needless to say I pulled his rope and climbed the route.

AMC - stewards of the outdoors claiming ownership. And don't even get me started over the fact they don't pay taxes to the towns that have to provide essential services to their multi million dollar "base camps!"